Brazilian 960 Reis: Struck Over A Colonial 8 Reales

Fascinating piece. I rarely can picture the overstruck coin, but I definitely can see the evidence on that one. Congrats.

wcg- Thanks!

echizento- yep, that is true (and very cool), but usually the devices of the overstruck 8 are not this apparent. So this is a really interesting example.

jfransch- thanks! That really is fascinating that these coins were just struck on any type of dollar coin that was on hand at this mint in Brazil. Please do post pics of your coin! You have me really curious.

swamperbob- Wow, very interesting stuff! Thanks for the input.

swamperbob- yes, I was aware of the B and R mint marks being in the center of the globe, but I must admit that since this is my first Brazilian 960, I have no idea from which mint this coin originates. Please do tell, Swamperbob.

Archraz - It is actually simpler than you think. If you look at the Globe side of the coin (which should be shown with the legend STAB SUBQ at the top) all you have to do is check the ends of the Portuguese Cross. Rio uses Trapezoids and Bahia uses Triangles. Some of the really odd or butchered shapes are counterfeits.

There is a third rare mint as well in 1810 - M (the Minas mint house) which operated 2 years only (1810 and 1816). They also used Trapezoids but chances of having an M mint are very slim.

On later dates you should also be able to tell by looking at the denomination. Bahia used a plain font for the 960 and Rio used a font with balls at the ends of the 9 and 6. In 1810 both were plain.

Axis of strike is not mentioned in the texts and how many were rotated is unknown to me. So orientation is not as far as I know a reliable method of determining the mint.

And for the record most of the SSP coins use the B mintmark. In 1814 the SSP's did use an R but the dies look like B types. The SSP is also responsible for the B/R over mint mark variety.

When dealing with the host varieties you really need to read Dave Levy's book. The 8R coins are most common by far but his book shows many other coins that were re-stamped. The US dollars are great but there is also a 2 Rupee from Madras,India, several Maria Theresa Thalers and coins from England, France, Italy, Netherlands and even some of the rare Spanish emergency issues. My favorites are of course the counterfeit hosts and those that were countermarked for use in the New World. So you should always check for undertypes. They can make a semi-common coin into a significant rarity.

jfransch - The identification of counterfeit hosts can be done using:
1. Traces of the underlying counterfeit coin in very rare cases.
2. Color (the normal method) at times the restrike will cause rapid concentrated wear on a small point of the host exposing a core of off metal.
3. Exposure of the fraud via test cuts or holes made many years ago.
4. Specific Gravity of the coin.

Unfortunately nearly every recoined counterfeit is going to be the CORRECT weight. It is my opinion that Brazilian officials used weight as their primary method of evaluation. An underweight or overweight counterfeit that was restruck as a 960R is not known to me. Dave Levy may know of some, but I do not.

You are correct in stating that the edges were redone by Brazil when they were re-coined. However, on some cases there is some of the original edge remaining. I have not found any instances where the edge alone could prove a restruck coin was a counterfeit.

Most of the restrikes on counterfeit hosts were previously identified and have been test cut. But when looking through a dealer's inventory I am always hunting for off metal or odd colors. Usually the off metal is exposed by wear, but in some cases it is surface discolorations seen on counterfeits that show even when the coin is re-stamped. The counterfeits made with white copper alloys in the early 1800s were plagued with streaks in the metal itself. Often showing up as dark streaks or swirls these imprefections in the alloy are often the only clue to a host being a fake until you check the SG.

I run SGs on all suspects when I get home. I do have a collection of real coins - residual coins that ended up being real when I got them home.

Exposing this particular fraud is far more of an ART learned over time than a strict science where you follow a check list for clues.

One other question to consider.

IS an officially re-issued 960R to be classified as a counterfeit if it was struck with real dies? Some of my friends consider them to be accidental off metal strikes and treat the coins as real - as if an incorrect planchet fell in a coining bin. Does anyone think I am being too much of a purist here or does anyone else consider a Contemporary Counterfeit being recoined more of a RARE host, falling in the category of a US Bust dollar?

The best place to see the overstrikes and to learn the true scarcity of the host coins is the Levy book. It was co-edited by a friend Dave Sunderland. His email is dsunderl@hotmail.com. He may have some copies left or know if Dave Levy has any left. Dave Levy is from Brazil and English is not his first language.

Make sure you tell him you know me. I don't think he would object to me plugging his book. It was published in 2002 in Brazil.