Questionable 1732 Pillar Dollar For Sale

jfransch - Very interesting comments. The coin certainly does look like a casting and it makes little sense to pay $350 for a cast copy of even such an historic coin. However, there may be more to the story ..........

Several years ago, on a trip to Mexico, I met an old gent originally from Germany who had worked with recovery divers on one of the famous wrecks as well. He worked in the corporate offices with access to the business partners. He had a story that I wonder if your contact can confirm or deny.

He said that the greatest part of the coins recovered were in essentially an unrecognizable state due to corrosion. They were more like silver lumps with no detail. They sold some to tourists but interest and prices were low. Over time the market declined as interest in the wreck abated.

These lumps as recovered were of essentially silver value only. There were many high grade coins found and those sold for higher and higher prices as interest increased but most of the coins recovered were just junk silver. The business partners did some "creative thinking" and devised a way to increase their profits on the low end salvage. They made transfer molds from the best coins and cast copies were made using the junk silver. That way they looked like coins not lumps and the "historic" silver was saved from the melting pot.

But initially these were NOT sold as cast copies. He said it became fairly normal for the salvers to have "guest" divers work on the site and that the finds they made were shared. I forget the ratio, but the salvers kept some and the finder kept the others. The finders always were asked to sign a paper regarding the find. These guests were normally people with good reputations, amateur divers, who would be above reproach and could vouch for the discoveries. However, the salvers always salted the scheduled work area with the cast copies of coins already discovered. This was the silver recovered from the wreck which could not be sold as is (except as raw silver). Using this process some of the "wreck" silver was converted to higher value coins and since they were discovered by an outsider the casts gained credence and value. They could also be submitted to TPG's with the certificates of discovery and get slabbed more easily.

I have tried to verify this story without success but I did get the manager at Mel Fisher's store in Key West to say that many of the items they sold at the store were actually casts of real coins made with recovered silver. So I figured I would buy a few for kicks, but the prices for these "recovered" coins was in the hundreds of dollars. The originals carried much higher prices typically over $1,000. The manager said this fact was "always" divulged at the point of sale. Of course (even though I spoke to him in about 2001 well after the 1984 cut off) NONE of the casts were stamped COPY in accordance with the Hobby Protection Act.

Once out of the store, the coins were on their own and the secondary market was in trouble.

This sounds like a potentially similar item, if the story is indeed true. It could be a store sale or a find turned over to the diver who "discovered" it or one of the other sales made years ago. But wherever it came from it is not an original artifact.

Personally I would not spend $300 or $400 for a piece of recovered silver recast into the shape of what it originally did look like. BUT SOME PEOPLE DO. While I was at the shop three different customers actually purchased one of these treasure coins and each paid at least $350. So perhaps this is a good deal?

jfransch - The coins involved were cobs of some sort. The fellow I met was not a coin collector so he really didn't know a lot about the coins just how they were salted.

Regarding the TPG's. I have another story.

I work as a part time authenticator for a local coin dealer. I have done so off and on for almost 6 years now. I do foreign coins, SG measurements etc.. I will start by saying that I don't agree with his business practices, but he is typical of the "sharp" dealer. One day a client brought in 2 Eight Reales for authentication and sale. I was in the shop at the time. I reviewed the coins and concluded both were forgeries - cast copies of a 1783 Portrait 8R that were acid etched. The coins were rather light in weight at about 24 grams each but they were silver. The two coins came from the IDENTICAL dies/molds and had IDENTICAL major damage before they were etched with acid. They looked like they had been in salt water for years, but there were NO accretions remaining. But each coin had a clear trace of a mid line seam. There is no doubt at all. It was a raised seam and it was present between the segments on BOTH copies. The edge design was very poorly matched and there were no apparent overlaps. The edge was in my opinion created as part of the casting process.

The owner had gotten them cheap at a flea market so no great loss. The dealer bought the pair for $20. When I asked why he said they looked real and he wondered if he could get them authenticated.

So he submitted the two cast copies for authentication. Both were submitted on his letterhead with NO claim as to provenance. The submission was totally blind - he did not say wreck coins, El Cazador or anything else.

Both coins came back AUTHENTICATED and ATTRIBUTED to the El Cazador wreck. Since I saw them before and after personally, this blew me away. The seam was absolutely OBVIOUS to anyone including the collector who bought them at the flea market.

I was so mad I called the company (which shall remain nameless - but which is one of the BIG 3) and spoke personally to the person who did the authentication. HE DID NOT LOOK AT THE EDGE OF THE COINS. He also said that on "low value" items they don't really spend much time with them. They assumed they were from the El Cazador wreck because they are of the same type and are "so common".

So what happened to the coins? The dealer sold the pair as real because they were authenticated. I believe he got $45 or $50 each.

I recall a quote attributed to the forger Mark Hoffman, who started his career making 1914 D pennies. He said once a fake is in a slab it is no longer a fake - IT IS REAL. I guess that does apply in this case.