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Why Do I Collect Counterfeit Mexican Coins?

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  12:20 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Several people have raised this question in the past but for newer members, I though it might be interesting to go over MY answer to that simple question.

I collect Mexican 8R counterfeits not because they are Mexican, but rather because they represent an under appreciated part of US numismatics. They were in fact very large part of US commerce for at least 20 years in the period from the Hard Times to the Civil War. They are coins that were handled by average citizens doing day to day business at least as often as silver coins made at the US mint.

I believe a few simple facts establish my contention:

1. In the period of 1839 to 1844 (the period documented by Dr. John L. Riddell in his book "Monograph of the Silver Dollar, Good and Bad") about 90 percent of the silver coinage in circulation in the United States was Mexican or Spanish American in origin. US manufactured coinage represented less than 10 percent of the total coin (specie) in circulation. The facts show that the US was forced to import silver, and the coins the US mint struck were almost immediately hoarded because of the high standards of manufacture. Older and WORN foreign silver coins, predominantly Mexican, stayed in circulation far longer and they were the coins used in everyday commerce.

2. A very large percentage of foreign silver coins circulating in the US were COUNTERFEIT. Estimates vary, but anywhere from 1 to 10 percent of all foreign coins were COUNTERFEIT according to various contemporary sources. Based on my count of the numbers of 8R coins I have examined over the years I have been a collector (which I guesstimate at well in excess of 250,000 in 50 plus years) I believe that the percentage is actually closer to 1 in 10. I have been keeping ebay statistics on and off for 10 years now and this year I started in May and have recorded EVERY auction involving an 8R to try to get an accurate count as of now. Those recent numbers are based on 242 examples dated before 1850 posted since May first. In that group I found 34 counterfeits (excluding suspicious coins) which works out to 14%. Later dated 8Rs are much more numerous and there are fewer forgeries (provided you eliminate the super common 1882 Zs Chinese fake I have seen over 70 of them posted). Of the later 8Rs, I have tracked 2,067 coins 73 of which were counterfeits a percentage of only 3.5%.

3. The majority (or at least a very substantial portion) of early dated Mexican counterfeits (those dated prior to 1845) seen in the US were made in the US not in Mexico. The proof of this theory lies in the rapid appearance of German Silver forgeries in the period prior to 1844. Riddell documents many GS varieties in the samples he took between 1839 and 1844. Since he published in 1845, that gives a terminal date for the manufacture of these coins of about 1844. GS was first introduced in the US in about 1837 and in Mexico over 10 years later. Mexican industry had not adopted the process for manufacture of German Silver before 1844 as far as I have been able to determine so none of the GS Riddell coins can be Mexican in origin. In addition, manufacture of counterfeit 8Rs was technically not even illegal in the US in the 1840s and passing fake coin was certainly not extensively prosecuted in the US especially during the Hard Times. But at the same time, it was illegal in Mexico to manufacture an 8R and a person involved in forgery could get hung.

Combine these facts and I think you will see that the average man on the street in the US before the Civil War was about as likely to encounter a Mexican counterfeit in his financial dealings as he was to encounter a legitimate US coin.

So if these coins circulated in numbers equal to US coins, why do so few people collect them?

Any thoughts?

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yotie's Avatar
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3077 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yotie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
because we are not aware of these facts would probly be the greatest reason

and thank you for the lesson

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steve199's Avatar
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1882 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steve199 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob,

Thank you for the incredible knowledge on 8R's you regularly share here. I don't own an 8R, yet, and look forward to learning more about them and making good purchases (including counterfeit 8R).
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yotie's Avatar
United States
3077 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yotie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
so are the conterfit US made 8R made w/ real silver?
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steve199's Avatar
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1882 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steve199 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yotie, often times real silver, sometimes not (could be silver plated).

The other day on google books I found the Riddell book that swamperbob refers to. Very interesting, and it details the metal composition of each known (at the time) counterfeit.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Yw...e&q=&f=false

There is a link to download the book as a PDF. Unfortunately there are blank pages in the PDF that have to be weeded through...but you can find the counterfeit Mexican dollars starting on page 149 of the PDF.
Edited by steve199
08/03/2009 1:49 pm
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting writeup!
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yotie's Avatar
United States
3077 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yotie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks Steve
just what I need another type to be on the look out for
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yotie - The earliest counterfeit 8R coins were often at least partially silver. Some copies were as high as 60 or 70 % silver, but almost as many were silver plated and a few contained essentially no silver at all. The answer varies from coin to coin.

During the Early Republican period (1823-1857) the forgers made a profit by making the coins with less silver than was appropriate. There were coin shortages in the Hard Times period when very few real coins circulated, so forgeries abounded. The profit margin for forgers in this period was based on making a non-silver coin or a debased coin pass at face value. There were many tricks used to do this. Some copies were enhanced in color with an acid bath to leach out some of the surface copper which made the debased coins too yellow. Other coins were painted or washed in a silvery bath. Some were dipped in mercury. But the key in the earlier period was to make the coin with less silver than standard. Casting techniques in this era were crude so most counterfeits from this era were struck from engraved false dies. The appearance was based on the talent of the engraver. Some were good, most were bad to awful looking copies.

The bullion counterfeits (I refer to the class as "Boston Forgeries")which were made in the 1880's and 1890's in the US were usually full weight silver. Some even contained too much silver. Those were made to take advantage of the drop in world silver prices which resulted after the discoveries of silver in the US west. By the 1890's a dollar coin actually contained only about a half dollar's worth of actual silver so if you made a dollar with the correct amount of silver you could make a profit. The fact that the coins were actually silver made them harder to detect. During this period a forgers profit came not from putting too little silver in a coin but by making a copy that would pass in circulation as the real thing. These later copies were typically made using transfer images which are faithful to the originals. The US micro O Morgan dollars fall in this class.

The link supplied by Steve to the Riddell book is one I keep on my desk top for ready reference. I have two hard copies but I prefer not to destroy the books so I routinely use the Google copy when hunting on ebay. It is worth looking through. It is the only reference to show you exactly what the counterfeits actually looked like. The pictures are quite accurate. In some cases, die breaks and blemishes seen in the pictures actually appear on original copies of the coins. Some of the Riddell coins were quite close to the originals in appearance - a few used real mint made dies that had been stolen - some of the dies were very crude, but all are interesting.
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yotie's Avatar
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3077 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yotie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
very cool thanks for the info when I am ready for 19th century coins I will have to research this more
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snowman's Avatar
United States
1840 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find these coins fascinating. I think they are undervalued by US coin collectors because they are often omitted from popular publications like the Red Book. This means that there is no easy ways for a uninitiated collector to quickly reference and accurately assign a value to them.

On a similar note; here's a 1/2 Reale that I bought recently. It was recovered from the wreck of the El Cazador and slabbed by PCGS:

Why-Do-I-Collect-Counterfeit-Mexican-Coins?

Spain sent this treasure ship from Mexico to New Orleans (a Spanish territory at the time). She was laden with thousands of silver pieces meant to prop up a failing territorial economy that had been too heavily reliant on paper script. The ship sank before reaching its destination. Some historians believe that the loss of this ship was a pivotal factor in the New Orleans territory eventually being ceded to the French. Shortly thereafter, Napoleon sold the territory to President Thomas Jefferson and the US government at pennies per acre. Had this coin reached its destination it most certainly would have seen circulation in colonial America.
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kidromeo's Avatar
India
37 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2009  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kidromeo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all the info swamperbob
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