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Counterfeit 1836 Guanajuato 8 Reale

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2009  4:45 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Today I won a very interesting counterfeit 8 Reale on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...120456397858

Counterfeit-1836-Guanajuato-8-Reale

The interesting feature of this coin is the VERY CRUDE eagle used with a fairly well engraved Cap die. The combination seems wrong. The artistry or lack thereof seen on one side of a counterfeit - usually but not always is seen on the other side.

I suspect the eagle die was either a hastily made replacement for a broken die or the dies had changed hands and the new owner could not duplicate the eagle.

It is generally accepted that counterfeit dies changed hands over the years for various reasons. Some experts cite this as the reason for radically different metals being used. In some cases, dies were recut or remated with other dies in the process. In this case, the two sides are so radically different that I believe the dies originally did not belong together. In fact, I believe I own a coin made with this same cap die but using a different eagle.

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manila galleon trade's Avatar
Spain
1361 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2009  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manila galleon trade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
interesting!
Bedrock of the Community
DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2009  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting! The seller was rather "generic" about the description...did they know it was counterfeit?
Am I right in guessing this isn't a modern counterfeit, but from the 19th C?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2009  8:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller was not aware the coin was a counterfeit, but nearly all the bidders were. The majority of sellers who post counterfeits do not appear to know what they are selling. Even if they do, it is in their best interests not to admit it since ebay will not step in to stop the auction unless the seller admits the item is counterfeit.

The coin is related to coins pictured in Riddell so I believe it dates to about 1845. I will post more after I receive the coin and can inspect it in person.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2009  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the coin arrived safely today and I have had time to do a preliminary inspection and comparison.

My conjecture was 100% correct. The cap die is the same 1836 G PJ cap die used in combination with a very nice looking Guanajuato bird. The ebay cap die is a much later state proving that the good looking Go style eagle was used before this very crude eagle. That makes perfect sense. There is ample evidence of wear and die chips on the coin that I recently won on ebay. In fact, the final digit of the date was recut on this copy. A detailed comparison of the cap dies causes me to conclude that they are one and the same die.

The coin is struck on a high copper content German Silver planchet (based on a yellow hue), it weighs 25.6 grams and has a very poor edge consisting of hand applied crescent shapes that were struck into the edge one at a time by hand. The spacing is irregular and the depth of the punch varies crescent to crescent. The crudity of the edge matches the eagle die.

Having the coin in hand, I believe it is an absolute match. I am also looking at another version which may represent a third variation using the same cap die. I have owned that coin for some time but had not made the linkage earlier. Once I can get them side by side and do a microscopic examination, I will take pictures and post the results.

Linking the work of various forgeries together is one of the activities that I get the most personal satisfaction from. It also demonstrates that these forged dies did last beyond one production run and that they were not only altered to extend their lives but that they were remated with other forged dies. I hope that it will also prove that at times counterfeit dies were sold to persons who lacked the expertise to make their own dies.

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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2009  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
G'day & thankyou, I always enjoy your discussions of "Spanish dollars", forged or otherwise.
I have a few in my collection, as they were legal tender in Australia, then known as New South Wales, pursuant to the proclamation by Governor P. G. King, dated 19th Nov 1800. Their value was five shillings, which I believe was the same as in England at the time.
Peter
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2009  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow...fascinating to hear those dies must have been reworked and reused!
Valued Member
lilaznkev1n's Avatar
Australia
126 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2009  03:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lilaznkev1n to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow that is really interesting!
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2009  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, today on ebay I won a copy of the confirming coin that I believe proves my original theory - even without searching through all of my counterfeits in the Bank.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...IBSA:US:1123

This new coin uses the same cap die as the coin in the original post but in an earlier die state and it is mated with a different EAGLE die. In fact the Eagle is a good copy of a Guanajuato bird.

Here is a side by side of the two Cap dies for comparison:

Counterfeit-1836-Guanajuato-8-Reale

As you can see, if you do a point by point comparison of the Ray positions and shapes - this is either the identical die or one made from the same hub. Having reviewed the crude eagle copy in hand, I doubt that a hub was used by the counterfeiters.

Discovering the two coins posted so closely together on ebay is STRANGE. Winning is stranger. The fact that I made the original post before locating the second coin on ebay is even stranger. The coins were posted by different sellers in Virginia and Ohio.

ebay never ceases to amaze me.



Edited by swamperbob
08/23/2009 8:42 pm
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2009  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a picture of both sides of both coins together for when the ebay link no longer has pictures.



Counterfeit-1836-Guanajuato-8-Reale
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