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 Replies: 10 / Views: 1,283 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
I just got this guy today. He certainly has some interesting Asian characters chopped into both obverse and reverse, but there are a couple of other marks that strike me as a bit odd. On the obverse there appears to be a circle carved into the direct center of the king's neck. Why would this be done, and what would cause this? A lathe of some sort? Also, on the reverse there is a notable mark in the crown that seems as though it was almost a hole, but the individual testing the metal (or attempting to alter the coin)stopped before reaching the other side. Swamperbob has mentioned on many occasions that holes or semi-holes can be indicators of a number of things. SO what do you guys think of this one?   Edited by Archraz
09/02/2009 8:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
525 Posts |
I would guess that the circle marks are unusual chopmarks and the reverse hole was either someone looking to see if the coin was silver-plated or just someone playing with a drill. ____________________________________________________________ Check out my website at: http://www.brianrxm.com/maincc.htmRoman Coins, Mexican Coins, Favorite Coins, Movie Coins The San Francisco Mint 1949 Mexico Peso Restrike |
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Lots of interesting marks on this coin, looking forward to see what swamperbob has to say about it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3499 Posts |
willieboyd2 - I'm not so sure that the one in the middle is a chop mark. It looks more like it was cut with some sort of a drill rather than struck. As for the other two circular chop marks, I really don't know what to make of them other than that they look cool (and the one lower on his neck looks like a "Poke Ball" from the Pokemon cartoon. haha).
Yep, I too am quite curious as to what Swamperbob has to say about this one.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
First I want to start by saying I am not a fan of chop marks - they are post strike damage for the most part and rarely do they add interest to a coin for me personally.
The marks appear to be "normal" and within the range of variation I have observed in Chinese merchant testing on both real and counterfeit coins.
The plain circle on the King's neck is weakly set and may be a partial impression of a normally deeper chop or it may simply be a circular punch - there is no corresponding mark on the other side of the coin top make me suspect a lathe.
The smaller chops that are not set too deeply tend to be earlier. The large rough DEEPLY set chops are typically later in time and are often seen on modern forgeries to lend an air of authenticity. I have seen them used to obscure details that were poorly engraved on forged dies.
Archraz You used the word "carved" in relation to the circle - Did you mean carved as in scribed? Is it a freehand carving? To me it looks like a punch. Chops are RARELY carved or made with more than one punch. Fake chop marks made with multiple impressions to firm a larger pattern are usually found on forged coins.
The drill hole is as someone else pointed out most likely simply a test - to see if the coin is a Sheffield Plate. The English forgeries (from Birmingham made in 1796) were heavy Sheffield plate coins that were sent to the orient in large numbers in the late 1700s as part of the War effort against Spain. Cutting the surface layer was done to test the coins by making a notch or partial hole to look for a color change. The hole also served to secure a tiny amount of metal for destructive chemical testing.
Regarding the hole - it may just be the light - but it looks as if there is in fact a color change. A good way to check internal color is to clean the hole under a microscope. The damage is already there so cleaning part of the hole is not an issue.
Finally there are two noteworthy chops - first in the O in Carolus is the symbol for Yuan or Dollar which is the denomination of this coin. Second is the reversed Swastika which was used in China but also in the US by the natives as a "good luck" symbol.
I have noticed several 1890's era forgeries with the reversed swastika and every time I see it - I look for a Boston type edge to make sure the coin is actually real. The Boston edge is one characterized by an edge applied in two segments (roughly equal ion length) but where one half of the edge also has diagonal slash lines ////////// on top of the normal edge. Sometimes but not always there are similar diagonals under the edge design on the other half.
I am by nature suspicious and I always check the edge of a Portrait 8R to see if it is properly applied.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
swamperbob- Thanks for the input. For me, as long as there are not tons of chops which obscure the original design, they add a little character and historical context to the coin.
As for the circle, I didn't really mean that it was truly "carved," rather that it just struck me as atypical and kind of shallow and almost kind of delicate-looking compared to most chops that I have seen.
The hole in between the crown and shield on the reverse actually is the same color at the bottom. My scanner tends to make images look a tad darker. In fact, this coin was rather harshly cleaned, so the overall impression given by the chops has been altered by this treatment. I actually have another 8 which has a swastika chop, which has led me to wonder just what significance this had back in the 18th and 19th centuries. I really didn't know that it was a symbol for luck in North America at that time. Might you know what significance it bore in China at this time?
As for the edges, I am quite sure that they are fine. Over the past couple of years I have become quite versed in the "Swamperbob school" of edge analysis. haha (In fact, I have been passing along your teachings to many people in my neck of the woods) The rectangle-square pattern has the proper "wobble," the circles do not have square corners, there are two overlaps that are 180 degrees from one another, and there are no diagonal slash lines. There are a few rectangles and circles that have become a bit blurred due to wear and damage, but I've seen this on a lot of 8's.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
swamperbob- Thanks for the link and all of the help. Very interesting stuff.
So do you guys think that I got a good deal on this one since I only paid $18?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Archraz You are kidding aren't you?  At $18 the coin was a steal - even if it was a forgery. The silver price being what it is (about $16 per ounce) you have paid less than $5 for the coin over raw silver. Great deal for a piece of history about 225 years old! 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
swamperbob - I'm not kidding at all. In my neck of the woods, foreign coins are really looked down upon by collectors as well as dealers. So I can usually get a pretty good price on some nice coins.
At how much would you value this coin?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Well, even in our local NC market (which has a limited call for Portrait 8Rs) they sell for about $40-45 with no problem. The wholesale price dealer to dealer is $30. It is actually worth about $50 in my opinion.
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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,283 |
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Posted 09/02/2009 10:28 pm
