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Yet Another Question - About Die Markers.

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dbrablec's Avatar
United States
1944 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  12:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dbrablec to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
i have found a 1958D LWC, which I have identified it as a 1MM-042, based on photos and descriptions on "coppecoins" website. I posted it on both the errors and varieties section and again on the grading section to get help grading it and noting the 2x2 flip. there was some, skepticism about whether I had it identified properly. my question is - if ALL of the die markers are present, visible and exact matches, is there any way the coin could NOT be the same, as the one described, namely the 1958D 1MM-042?
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MorgansRmine's Avatar
United States
1219 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MorgansRmine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin 'is what it is'. Unless there is an error on the attribution page, you've got the 1MM-042.
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dbrablec's Avatar
United States
1944 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dbrablec to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks for the response, but that wasn't the question. I am already convinced that I have identified the coin properly. the question was if those same die markers, which were an exact match, to the markers at coppercoins website, could they ever be present like that, and NOT be that exact coin. for instance if there were some reason that the "D" wasn't completely visible, or identifiable. could the presence of ALL of the matching die markers - be conclusive?
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MorgansRmine's Avatar
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1219 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MorgansRmine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since no two dies would wear exactly the same or show the same features, I would feel safe to attribute my coin with just the exact die markers. One good example is the 1916/1916 nickel with no date showing. It can be matched by markers alone.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RPMs go through various die states as well. The punching may enlarge/ get stronger or in some cases and in other get weaker with die use. Here is an example:
Yet-Another-Question---About-Die-Markers.
Answer:
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...WEAR_RPM.jpg
Die markers must match exactly. In this case it helped to identify this coin. But not all die markers remain the whole life of the die. Some die scratches may only appear on early die examples, while die cracks/chip/breaks continue to worsen with continued use. Die gouges may remain longer or remain the life of the die. Die scratches in the fields may flatten with time. I like to call them as "faded" die scratches as they are still in the same area on the die, but disappears in the field, but may remain stronger next to devices. Clashes may be polished out leaving more wear on the die. The devices get mushier as continued use wears the die. Something of note is than not all obverse/reverse die pair may not remain to the same age. On of them maybe replaced if one get broken. Ofter another die is paired that may/may not be of the same die state. Some times a new die will start if venture on the coin making events it faces, other times a semi-retired die may be placed back into use.
On a different note though, the dies often face the same events that change their appearances. Die clashes/cleaning/gouges alter the true design some and happen several times during the die life. Die crack appear in the same places because of the continuing clashes. Designs of the coins may be weaker/poorer in design may leave a common defect. Often you find cracks in certain areas, Head, Shoulder, columns edges of the memorial or at the roof or cornice tips. Common because of the same events happen over and over and the coins they make are almost identical.
So die markers may come and go or remain the whole like of the die. Hard fast rules seems to not always apply. So first identify the variety by location, spread and lastly markers to identify die states as a confirmation. Looking for markers first and assuming they are from that die will not work because of the repeating markers on normal coins. So ID must be exact of markers LAST.
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MorgansRmine's Avatar
United States
1219 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  5:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MorgansRmine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, very informative, but when all is said and done, if the die markers are an exact match, the coin is what it is and will never be anything else.
Note: Markers are like fingerprints that identify that dies are the same.
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