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 Replies: 16 / Views: 4,412 |
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
I am trying to find information about German proof and pattern coins from 1933-1948 as I collect WWII era coinage. The only source I have is the Krause world coins and for proofs they only list general values for "common date proofs." Krause isn't much help with this as they list this for the proof coins listed under the Third Reich along with basic values:
It shows a proof issue for each of the 1933 2 and 5 Mark coins with Martin Luther from each mint (A, D, E, F, G, J). It also lists one for the 1934-F 2 and 5 Mark coins with Shiller (the only mint that made it that coin). It also lists proofs for each mint for the 1934 2 Mark with the Potsdam Garrison Church for each mint as well as listing a "1934 Proof" for the 5 mark with date.
Proofs for each mint (A, D, E, F, G, J) are also listed for the 1935 50pf Aluminum design.
Now, I know that these are considered commemorative coins...but I find it odd that they were so interested in proofs yet it seems like the information is so limited. Here is what Krause lists for proofs with the other coins:
1936-1940 "Common Date Proofs" 1pf Bronze
1940-1945 "Common Date Proofs" 1pf Zinc
1936-1940 "Common Date Proofs" 2pf Bronze
1936-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 5pf Aluminum-Bronze
1940-1944 "Common Date Proofs" 5pf Zinc
1936-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 10pf Aluminum-Bronze
1940-1945 "Common Date Proofs" 10pf Zinc
1938-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 50pf Nickel
1940-1944 "Common Date Proofs" 50pf Aluminum
1933-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 1 Mark
1936-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 2 Mark
1934-1935 "Common Date Proofs" 5 Mark with Church no Date
1935-1936 "Common Date Proofs" 5 Mark
1936-1939 "Common Date Proofs" 5 Mark
It's the same for the Weimar deigns which I include in my Third Reich set as well as the military coinage and post-war occupation coinage. There is no mintages listed and the phrase "common date proofs" doesn't tell me anything about what dates or mints the coins were produced.
There is even less information about the patterns.
If anyone knows another source that would give more information I would greatly appreciate it. I assume the information I am looking for is out there somewhere. Also, I don't read or speak German...so that might impaire my ability to gather information.
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New Member
 United States
12 Posts |
Can anybody point me in a direction that might be helpful?
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Ok, well Patterns (Proben) are a completely different deal but about Proof's... Yes Proofs were produced for most of Silver issues between 1933 and 1939, however, information is somewhat limited (because a LOT of mint/RFM records were lost during WW2). I can say I have seen Proofs for the Luther, Schiller, Potsdam mit Datum and Hindenberg mit Hakenkreuz silver coins. I've also seen a proof of the Aluminium 50Rpf (which I must admit I am suspicious of, considering the coins were minted in 1935-1937 and stored until 1939/40) and some of the early Nazi Copper coins... However, wartime proofs I must say I have not actually witnessed nor heard of. From 1946 onwards, the odd Proof Zn coins appeared (most always from Stuttgart)... So, what info are you actually after? I'll try and answer from what I have learnt What Mints produced proofs? All of them at various times, however, I cant confirm if all mints produced proofs (ie, if all the mints made for example, 1938 5RM Proofs)... There are proofs from all mints for the 1933 Luther and 1934 Potsdam mit Datum 2RM/5RM coins however... It would be one heck fo a Rich and Patient collector to embark on putting together Proof sets like this! Mintages? Not definitively known... the current mintage figures (which are inaccurate in several instances) represent circulation numbers... So the percentage/mintage is not known. At one stage, another researcher and I were working through some record's, tabulating probable proof mintages, but this project isn't complete... Recommended Keywords: (for Bing or Google searches) Polierte Platte : Polished Plate, coin grade used to describe Proofs (tho I have seen it used to describe Specimens too Proben or Probemünzen : Pattern/Pattern-coin Recommended References: (Learn a bit of German first ;) ) Kurt Jaeger - Die deutschen Münzen seit 1871 mit Prägezahlen und Bewertungen (earlier editions are called 'Die Deutschenreichsmunzen seit 1871' and 'Katalog der deutschen Reichsmunzen seit 1871') - this is THE Münzkatalog for the German Collector. First edition was in 1942 (tho that one is hard to find), with 20 editions since... the editions AFTER 1974(?) are the ones that start to include mintage data; the 1990's - present editions are really useful. Rudolf Schaaf - Die Proben der deutschen Münzen (1979) - all about the Patterns that were known at the time of publishing; thus its not exactly upto date, but its the best single volume on the subject. http://cgi.ebay.ch/Die-Proben-der-d...af_W0QQitemZ380156120933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZM%C3%BCnzen_Medaillen?hash=item5883120f65&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Egon Beckenbauer - Die Standard-munzkatalog Deutschland 1871-1969 (1969) - Underrated in my option, but really interesting! Gunter and Gerhard Schoen - Kleiner Deutscher munzkatalog mit Liechtenstein, Osterreich und Schweiz ab 1871 - what is says... definitely not as good as the Jaeger Katalog Oh, and forget Krause... Any more questions? The period you describe has basically filled the last 2 years of my life, froma research perspective :) |
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Hi again Camaro,
Did a little asking around and was pointed to a US collector, who I shot an email to. It appears that Proof's were issued for many of the Third Reich issues, however no one seems to i) know for sure or ii) have any sort of documentation that confirms Proof's were issued for all regular denominations from 1933-1939.
Wartime Zinc Proofs seem as if they do NOT Exist, Occupation Zinc exists in proof form only in VERY limited numbers from Stuttgart, Aluminium proofs are exceedingly rare and probably more represent something like a Proben or Minting test more than a Proof.
But, for 1933-1939, it seems most issues MAYBE available as Proofs (in this period, the 1935 (not released until 1939/40) does not seem to be available in Proof, as mentioned above); of these as VERY small fraction of coins were minted as Matte Proofs. I have NEVER SEEN a Third Reich Matte proof, but I have been assured they exist! Of the 'regular' Proofs, the Nickel proofs are the hardest to find (more so the 50Rpf, than the 1RM) and the Silver seem to be the easiest to find...
Its interesting... Another area of research that I haven't touch for 12-18 months, that I can possibly start to update :)
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Yep... His name was mentioned :)
And I just dug up my List of Confirmed Proofs - Its totals 62, with another 2-3 'Highly probables' (such as the Luther set has Proof's sighted for all except 5RM 1933G - its highly probably that this proof was made!)...
Edited by Zaggy
10/18/2009 08:00 am
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
Wow, lots of good information here. So, you know of 62 confirmed proofs plus a couple probables. Is it possible for me to get that list from you...that would be very helpful. It appears that the hard core evidence I am looking for simply doesn't exist. Do you have any information about value of the proofs...more detailed than Krause can provide?
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
I think if I explain my reason for my information search...it might make it easier for you guys to help me because you will better understand what I am looking for. First, a little bit about myself. I have been collecting coins for about a decade now (mostly US stuff) but over the last several years I have become very interested in Third Reich coinage. Ever since I was a young child I have been interested in WWII history...I guess it was only a matter of time until the two merged. I am at a point in my life that I am defining where I want my coin collection to go (as I'm a student I don't have a lot of money to buy coins...so I'm in the planning phase). I am a 2nd year dental student so in a few years I expect to have an income that will allow me to begin to assemble a nice collecting over the course of a lifetime. One of my big goals has become to assemble a complete (or as complete as possible) collection of Third Reich coins. To do this, I need to first come up with a list to work from. I have decided that since this will be a lifelong pursuit, I want to work on generating as complete of a list as possible...including: - Circulation coins (1933-1948) - including Weimar designs (from 1933 on), military occupation, and post-war allied occupation.
Patterns-
Proofs-
I know this is ambitious and probably impossible, but I think it is a good project to focus my collection on. I am slowly trying to assemble the information I will need for this project. |
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
I will write more later (I've a class to give in a few minutes, and it doesn't look good of the instructor is late! hahahaha), but to quickly address the second of the emails: - Circulation coins: This shouldn't be TOO hard; 80-90% of the complete set, isn't 'HARD' to get a hold of (unless you're after PREMIUM ONLY, then you may need to be a bit more patient), the last 10% will be Nickel coins (J.365 50Rpf and the 1939 J.354 1RM) and RKK Coins; the Nickel is achievable, the RKK, maybe not achievable; but we all need a goal! AND Go buy a copy of the newer Jaeger Katalog and learn German Grades.. German's don't deal with the 'American' style of grading or Katalogs, and your life will be far easier if you can do this too! - Patterns and Proofs: Now you're moving upscale! REGULARLY visit the more well know German Auction Houses (www.kuenker.de for example) and be prepared to pay big money for some of the Patterns... BUT you can start a bit more conservativiely - https://www.franquinet.de (Guy Franquinet) often lists a small number of Proben on his site/pricelists; you maybe able to talk price with him too. Guy is well known and also validates a LOT of coins, so I'd expect buying from him, you will have NO WORRIES regarding authenticity... Proofs, I'm told Ron Guth is the guy to talk to. References - GET A COPY OF SCHAAF, no if's, no but's! Franquinet should be able to sort you out with that too. OK, off to class... |
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Regarding Hardcore information; it probably does exist, its just that it is spread far and wide - part of what I am doing is trying to bring all that information together. Admittedly, regarding Proof's, all I can say with certainity is that Proof's exist for all the Luther Issues (2RM and 5RM) and the Schiller 2RM and 5RM coins. All the other stuff that I have listed is more sporadic...
Shot me a PM with you contact details, CamaroDMD... We'll talk some more. I'm always happy to encourage ppl to take up collecting things that I'm interested in researching! :) On that note (no pun intended), anyone collect Post-WW2 German Notgeldscheine? :)
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Found evidence of another one today, and waiting for lists from two other Proof Collectors...
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
Zaggy,
I looked but I was unable to find the PM option on this forum. I am still new to this board and it is a little different than others I have been on. I tried to send you an email through your profile but for some reason it wouldn't let me (it said "Sorry, you do not have access to the forum email system"). I have setup my account so I can receive emails from members.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Woah, thats weird! Tis why I suggested shooting me a message... It SHOULD work! (Kind of like how I've been feeling about the Uni Project I've been working on for the last THREE F*@#ing WEEKS - It should work, darn IT!!)...
Anyway, I'll try and shoot you a message with my email and etc within... then go home its almost 01:00am here, and its pretty uncool to still be working away here in the labs; I have a reputation as a laid-back, party-dude... Not someone who hangs round labs all night, chipping away at projects that SHOULD F*@#ing WORK three weeks ago!
Can you feel my frustration? ;)
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
Thanks, I appreciate it. I got your email.
I understand. When I was working on my Bachelor's degree I worked as a technician in a molecular biology lab and there were many late nights there too.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Yeah, I hear you... I'm here again tonight - at least I have cracked it... the prototype is working, so I'm now integrating the prototype into the development tree.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
I looked but I was unable to find the PM option on this forum You need 50 posts to have the capability to email other members. As long as you have your email address listed in your profile, other members should be able to email you. BTW, good luck on your difficult quest here  |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 4,412 |
Posted 10/16/2009 01:16 am
