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Bullion Vs. Numis?

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huntercav's Avatar
United States
44 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  09:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add huntercav to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all

I am trying to get a general sense from people about the condition of the Numis market, particularly in Gold and Silver. On another forum there is a debate regarding the recent explosion in bullion vs. numismatics. Some are saying that they are seeing coins that at one time had a numismatic premium lose that perceived premium and are now being viewed and valued only for their Au/Ag content.

Is this because there are are newcomers into this market who are only after the Ag/Au content of the coins and don't care or understand the numismatic aspect?

If so, wont this drag any numismatic premium of most numismatic coins back towards the bullion content value?

Thanks for sharing any thoughts on this,
Mike

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You gotta look at this in a longer-term sense. The state of the economy, and the price of precious metals, is temporarily bringing fresh meat into the bullion market. It's hardly the first time, they're temporary speculators, and eventually the economy will catch up and these folks will move on to the next shiny object. For the moment, though, there are less-knowledgeable folks investing who don't know (or don't care) about any "perceived premium" numismatic aspect, and their words and deeds are diluting the message somewhat.

A nice coin will always be a nice coin, and there will always be those who understand its' numismatic worth. People like us were here before the economy went bad, we'll still be here when the economy comes back, and the coins won't change at any time during the process.

If there are people who don't understand this and only want to pay bullion value for my coins, well, I just won't sell to them.
Pillar of the Community
RFB's Avatar
United States
532 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  09:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RFB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You used to be able to find more plentiful sales grounds for coins when silver was lower. Granted particular key date's rarity insulates them with hefty premiums away from their bullion content. A 38D Walker, CC Morgan, or 16D merc are generally already in the hands of people that know what they are. They have been for many years. Even if those people are not collectors, that does not mean they are ever available at bullion rate. It is because they hold them thinking the coins are worth such premiums. They have always only rarley been in the marketplace compared to the more common coins.

It goes in waves as the bullion market climbs and dips. Rapid higher climbs in the metals market are attached to the general population and economic conditions. Yes, more people sell off the G, VG, and F coins as melters just because of their own situation might call for it.

The opposite side of the market are the people that are trying to leverage themselves into a position for when the market rises yet again. These people gobble up everything and are often seen as the only buyers by most outside the hobby. Since their presence is seen in such numbers by those outside the hobby, the general baseline for values can become blurred into spot translations. Speculators and people only attached to coins through that same blurred understood value is what they can sell it for.....what the bullion gobblers are buying at.

The bullion guys are hardest hitting the AG-F collectors. Such items as common barbers, or SLQ's are now through osmosis into a competition for market share among the buyers....but no one will dare go above X back from spot. The harder the position someone is in, the more they will move down the price into the bullion priced marketplace dictated of course by current spot price of the time..

Bullion prices have drove up the bottom and has nibbled away from the top. Plenty of people are in tough times and selling their collections to spot buyers...The numbers of sellers in those positions erodes the market price every time someone is leveraged into selling a key /or semi key for spot price due to personal financial hardship.

Ebb and flow. It has always been this way in the hobby. Just that 4-6 years ago when everything was sunshine and roses people both inside the hobby and out drove up the market for coins with their disposable income. Similar to the housing market or anything else involving any real amount of money based on speculation of future market conditions. It is now that the newer collectors are actually seeing it happen for the first time.

JMO.
Valued Member
hippiebrian's Avatar
United States
436 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  10:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hippiebrian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see a lot of the bullion buyers, who are just worried about the percentage of silver in any given coin. Cool enough, but I really hope none of the scarce or rare coins get melted for bullion value during this fad. It would be a shame to lose these permanantly to the community. I try and educate some of them about the possible numismatic value of what they're purchasing, but it seems all they can see is the p.m. value, and a lot (not all, by far) don't care about the historical importance or the numismatic importance of their holdings. Kind of sad, really.

As far as the market goes, I'm just a collector. When my number is up, my daughter may be worried about investment values, but for me it's about the hunt, owning and enjoying these little treasures.

I really hope the p.m. market takes off a bit more, and the silver and gold people stick just to the bullion bars and coins, but as of yet, they're picking up any .900 coin they can grab, and selling them off at whatever times face. Like I said, I hope the buyer doesn't just melt them as bullion.
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huntercav's Avatar
United States
44 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add huntercav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a follow up on my initial question, where does this leave Numismatics after the economy returns to a more normal state of affairs? Some of you have seen this before, most likely in the 70's. I have heard that a lot of silver was melted at that time and many coins were removed forever from potential collectors' hands. This process of elimination must make what remains even more unique if not rare.

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hippiebrian's Avatar
United States
436 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hippiebrian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's exactly what scares me, as I mentioned in my above statements.
Pillar of the Community
trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think there is such a thing as a "numismatic premium", only a "numismatic value". The price of a 1909S VDB Lincoln is not based on the copper value + a premium, it's based on the supply of, & demand for, the coin itself.

In times like this coins whose bullion value exceeds their numismatic value will be melted down. If enough coins are melted the numismatic value of the remaining coins will increase.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2009  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For me not to much of a question at all. I've seen the prices of metals go up and down and up and down. Coin values have never really dropped over the years I've been collecting. Yes they have leveled off in price at times but I just don't remember coins going down in prices. And from what I remember of a friend of mine that went a little nutty buying Gold some years back, when he tried to sell it, he really ran into some walls. He found that if the price of Gold was $690/Oz, that is not what he could sell it for. Usually a lot less. However, in that same regards, coins too have an approximate value but selling it for that price sometimes too is not easy. Coins that are in great demand always can be sold easily though regardless of the economy at coin shows or on ebay of course.
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