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Idiot Ebay Buyers - Morphed - Customs Debate

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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  1:16 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I enjoy reading all the posts I find here about the unscrupulous or idiotic sellers on ebay. Not only are they instructive, many of them are downright entertaining! I occasionally contribute to those posts and have initiated a few of them myself. But in case anyone has ever wondered if there are idiotic buyers out there in eBayland, PLEASE REST ASSURED!

Two weeks ago a guy in Edgewood, Texas won 4 Buffalo nickels from me. He paid me quickly and I shipped his coins on the next business day. As is my custom, I included a no-charge bonus coin to show my appreciation of his purchase, which happened to be a circulated, original date (no acid) 1926-P Buffalo nickel with a full 4 digit date. I also left positive feedback for him on ebay. Several days passed and then he left positive feedback on ebay for me, as well.

End of story, right? Well.no.

A couple days after he left positive feedback for me he sent me an email telling me he'd like to return the coins, that he wasn't happy with them, and would I please give him instructions for their return. Before I could formulate an answer he sent me another email telling me he'd like to keep the bonus coin (?!?!).

My stated return policy reads like this: "7 day return privilege. No hassle and no questions asked." I promptly VIOLATED the second part of that. I wrote to him and simply said, "I am confused. Why did you give me positive feedback only to then decide you wanted to return the coins? Please answer that question for me and I will give you instructions for their return." To which he replied, "My feedback was just to let you know that the coins arrived promptly and in good condition. I didn't actually look at the coins until later."

At the time all this was happening I could see that the guy only had 33 feedbacks (all positive) so I knew he was a little new to all this. So I wrote back to him and gave him a little friendly advice. I told him that he should never leave positive feedback until he was satisfied with EVERYTHING - the turnaround time, the packaging, the shipping costs and, most importantly, the actual merchandise. I told him that when a seller sees that positive feedback, he's in the clear and the buyer has lost most, if not all, of his recourse if he's not happy. I then told him a lot of sellers would NOT allow a return at this point and that he was lucky that I wasn't one of THOSE sellers. At that point I told him how to make the return - including the need to acquire a delivery confirmation number from the USPS. I also told him I wanted that bonus coin back.

He wrote back and said, "Too late. I put the coins in the mail yesterday and didn't get a confirmation number. I kept the bonus coin because I needed it to complete a set I got from my father. Can I just pay you for the bonus coin?"

I wrote and asked, "Why would you presume to keep the bonus coin? I included that as a token of my appreciation of your purchase. Now that you are reversing that purchase, it will be necessary for you to return ALL the coins I sent you."

He wrote again and asked, "How can we bring this to a pleasant conclusion?"

I told him that I was being as pleasant as I could be, under the circumstances, and that a pleasant conclusion, and a refund, would be achieved only after I received ALL of the nickels back.

Comments...? Have I unfairly classified him as an "idiot"..?
Edited by weerdsteev
11/19/2009 4:08 pm
Pillar of the Community
RFB's Avatar
United States
532 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RFB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Slap in the face rude behavior from the customer, but you dig the hole.

Free gifts/bonuses and no questions asked return policy.

You can either go to the mat over a 3.00 nickel, or just forget about it and block him from future purchases. You already know arguing with an idiot only has one path.

Sorry you had to go through it. Definatley rude on the part of the buyer.
Bedrock of the Community
biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Have I unfairly classified him as an "idiot"..?

I think you have been kind, I would have had a few more choice words I cannot believe the guy actually wanted to keep an order bonus that he forfeited once he decided to (improperly) return the purchase.


Quote:
He wrote again and asked, "How can we bring this to a pleasant conclusion?"

He could start by logging off ebay, deleting his account, and never return again
Edited by biokemist6
11/17/2009 4:07 pm
Pillar of the Community
Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
definitely from the shallow end of the gene-pool:
a few sandwiches short of a pic-nic;
kangaroos in the top paddock;
etc

My advice would be to resist the temptation to waste more of your own time on this frustrating transaction.

Peter in Oz
Locked
822 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  5:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Ebay buyers can be idiots, too


I got 2 negatives from Canadian buyers (threatened with many more) because I refused to commit a felony and falsify a federal document so the buyer could cheat their country out of taxes.

Yes, of course I got them removed.
Valued Member
MattDrew's Avatar
United States
146 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MattDrew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is fair to label him an idiot. It would never even enter my mind to act the way he did. I am speechless...I am without speech.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More proof, that given the chance...people can rationalize anything.
Myself, I'd never assume a thank you gift for sending back coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
505 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2009  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Frazzle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I told him that when a seller sees that positive feedback, he's in the clear and the buyer has lost most, if not all, of his recourse if he's not happy


I dont think this is always true,If the buyer paid with paypal,he could file a dispute and in my experience,the buyer usually wins those
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  12:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Have I unfairly classified him as an "idiot"..?


Yes, yes you have. It's unfair to idiots everywhere.



What a maroon.
Valued Member
Brannenworks's Avatar
United States
106 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  02:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brannenworks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think he bought the coins, showed them to a friend who talked down "restored", but wanted to keep the bonus because it wasn't restored.

As far as I'm concerned, I have nothing against cleaning or restoring. I don't quite understand why it seems to bother so many people. It reminds me of dog shows where a requirement is that a male dog be, uh, "complete". What's up with that?
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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  08:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brannenworks - More likely he decided he could restore them himself. Before he displayed his idiot tendancies he was asking me all sorts of questions about restoring nickels.

He said he wanted to keep the 1926-P to complete a set he got from his father. Since when is a 1926-P the LAST coin you need to complete a Buffalo set? Isn't it more likely to be the 1913-S T2 or the 1918/7-D...?
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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Frazzle - You are right but I am now in the position of:

1.) Being able to prove he received my coins
2.) Able to show positive feedback

He, on the other hand, cannot prove he sent the coins back to me for the refund unless he's monitoring this website....
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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Scubu - You are like the avenging angel of... ummm...eBay...killer...good guys. Or something. Anyway, we ALL applaud you!
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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SuperDave: Maroon...? Ah! A moron, only more colorful!
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WpgLwr's Avatar
Canada
1082 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WpgLwr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I got 2 negatives from Canadian buyers (threatened with many more) because I refused to commit a felony and falsify a federal document so the buyer could cheat their country out of taxes.


Let me guess...they wanted you to mark the package as a "Gift", right?

You have to understand the Canadian mindset on this issue.

Canadians love to shop in the US. The reasons? Historically, it was because of better selection and cheaper prices. Although this situation has changed somewhat with NAFTA and the introduction of such American retailers as Wal-mart, which are very competitive price-wise, these historic reasons still loom large in the Canadian psyche, and "doing a 48" (i.e., going to the US for a period of 48 hours to qualify for a bigger exemption at Customs on goods brought into the country) is still a common way to spend a holiday weekend, especially since the exemption went up from $50 to $400 (this was a policy change that occurred about 5 years ago, when no one was going to the US for shopping because the Canadian Dollar at the time was hovering around .65 US -- the government gave out a gift that no one at the time was using, but it has since backfired on them).

Now while the American Customs officer is basically a cop, complete with sidearm, his Canadian counterpart is basically a tax collector, who exists to do nothing but collect duties and sales tax (and even the sales tax is a relatively new thing, dating only since the introduction of the Federal GST). "Law and order" type duties are typically handled by an Immigration officer, one of which is usually on duty at every checkpoint.

Canadians are heavily taxed on income (compared to Americans), so it has long been a game of sorts to see what they can get through Customs without having to pay duty on. It isn't seen as "cheating the country out of taxes", it's perceived as "getting one over on the Governement". Customs, knowing of this, has even bent the rules somewhat and doesn't take a heavy handed approach, charitibly giving a returning traveler the benefit of the doubt -- nothing found on a vehicle is considered to be "concealed" if it is found during a search and hadn't been declared, because it was findable in the first place. In such a situation, they will draw the declarer's attention to the item, suggesting that they forgot to declare it and assessing duty on it. The reason for this is that it is hard to label the average person as a "smuggler" when the quantity is so low. The only things they get really sticky on are booze and tobacco, and the duty and taxes assessed can actually make the price of the offending item even more than it could have been bought for in Canada in the first place.

A lot of American sellers will gladly tick off the "Gift" box on a Customs form, because it's really no skin off their nose; Canadian Customs will not pursue the matter further if it is ticked off, and the item will be speedily delivered. Speedy delivery is probably the biggest thing most people think of today because of the implementation in the early '90s of a program whereby Canada Post negotiated a deal with Customs to get a $5 fee on every dutiable parcel or package they sent to Customs out of the mailstream. Diverting the parcel can slow it down, because Customs only inspects them as they have time or personnel to do so, and further, Canada Post diversion of an item mailed from the US is arbitrary at best, left up to the discretion of the Post Office staff in question -- if he or she thinks that an item is likely dutiable, they divert it. Note that this person is in no way a Customs officer, yet they are the one that makes the initial assessment as to whether to divert the package.

If a package is diverted, it may sit in the Post Office's Customs bin for a day or two until Customs personnel picks it up. Add another couple of days for inspection and the preparation of the bill for duty and sales tax, which is then affixed to the package before it is returned to Canada Post for delivery. It is then sent out with a letter carrier, who will then collect the duty and taxes at the door on delivery. Naturally, since most people aren't home in the daytime, a card is then left for the item to be picked up at the local Post Office, but it is usually not available until the following day. The delay in total on such a package is usually between four and five working days.

Gift packages usually sail on through without delay, as I have already said. More credence is given, naturally, if the item was mailed by a private party and not a business, and since most sellers on ebay are private parties, it would be totally believable to the Post Office staff that the item was a gift.

The GST, when it was brought in, was (and still is) widely unpopular, as it was seen as a tax grab by the government that passed it. It was supposed to lower prices by taking out the "hidden taxes" paid by the manufacturer, but this never really happened -- when it was implemented, the basic price of most items stayed the same, the manufacturer claiming that implementing the different tax structure was costing them something, and they were obliged to pass on this cost to the consumer. Over time, GST expanded to cover items that were not taxable in the first place, for example, a couple of things that are near and dear to me, lawyer's fees and postage stamps. It didn't take long for the individual provinces to jump on the bandwagon and demand their share of the pie, expanding Provincial Sales Taxes to these areas as well, and the Provinces even negotiated a deal with Customs whereby Customs would also collect Provincial taxes for them on items coming into the country.

Lately, there is talk of harmonizing the Provincial tax and GST into one percentage instead of two, thereby applying one tax or the other to items not formerly taxed.

So, as you may be able to see, all the average Canadian wants to do is keep a little more of their money to themselves.

I am not relating this information in an effort to get you to change your mind (although I have to admit that I find your viewpoint that you are being asked to "commit a felony" more than a little over the top), I am merely just telling you what the mindset is of the person making the request.

Are they "cheating their country out of taxes"? On the face of it, yes, but these are taxes that the average person feels aren't legitimate ones. Let's be honest, the reason for customs duties in the first place is so people won't spend money in another country and will leave it in their own economy. When you add sales taxes to duty for an item that wasn't even purchased in the jurisdiction that is adding the taxes on, it doesn't seem warranted. When you add in a $5 fee from the Post Office for doing a job they were doing in the past as a matter of their regular duties, it seems even less warranted.

If you don't want to tick off the Gift box, don't do it. One thing you can do, though, is add a disclaimer to your online listing that you will not do so, just so everyone is clear and won't make the request.

One other thing: we all know that people get "deals" on ebay, i.e., that they sometimes pay less for an item than the regular price. Canada Customs, if they feel that an item has been underdeclared value-wise has the right to reassess the value of the item, and then charge a higher rate of duty on it because duty is a percentage of the purchase price. If they raise the price, they can raise the amount of duty and taxes they receive. Now, while I doubt that they have any coin experts at Customs who can assess a catalogue value on an item, I have heard of instances where other goods were reassessed and valued higher and then charged duty and taxes on this "new" price (eg., a Rolex watch that was won on ebay for $120, but had a much higher usual sale price). The one thing Customs won't do is revalue an item if the lower paid price is provable, or if there are circumstances that tell them that the purchase price was as valued. Canadians are allowed by Customs to take advantage of getting something "on sale", so if you wind up taking a big loss on an item you're selling to the extent that it's an unbelievably good deal for the buyer, please make sure you note on the Customs form that the item was "Purchased on ebay".

And another further thing: when valuing the item for the purpose of Customs declaration, ensure that the price you put down is the actual winning bid amount. For some reason, some people feel compelled to add in the postage costs also, something that could raise the value of an item over the $60 threshold where duty actually starts on items in the mail.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2009  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that was interesting! Maybe I'll reconsider how I send coins to Canada.

Quote:
...his Canadian counterpart is basically a tax collector
I'll remind them of their actual status next time I run the gauntlet in Victoria.
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