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Voc Coins

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Goodasgold's Avatar
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2009  06:30 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Am told "Dutch East India" Gulden with the VOC monogram is typically more scarce than those without - is this true?

Mine here:
Voc-Coins

Les
Edited by Goodasgold
12/15/2009 9:05 pm
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2009  07:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice coin, KM#116, 0.9200 silver. I haven't seen many of these but they are not particularly rare. I would grade it at AU-50. Value a little over a $100 US.
Edited by echizento
12/05/2009 07:06 am
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Goodasgold's Avatar
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2009  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for that, echizento.

Les
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2009  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Goodasgold- Very nice! These are not easy to come by.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2009  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW that is AU-50? were they made with a hammer and punch? I know nothing about these and that's why I ask, please don't take my questions as sarcasm it was a honest question
Valued Member
Goodasgold's Avatar
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2009  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Goodasgold asked:

Am told "Dutch East India" Gulden with the VOC monogram is typically more scarce than those without - is this true?

Brian1315 replied:

Quote:
WOW that is AU-50? were they made with a hammer and punch?

also:

Quote:
I know nothing about these and that's why I ask

and:

Quote:
...please don't take my questions as sarcasm it was a honest question


Seems not to address my original question Brian1315 ... but we forgive you regardless

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2009  03:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Am told "Dutch East India" Gulden with the VOC monogram is typically more scarce than those without - is this true?

To answer your question more directly, here's what my 1700's Krause has to say:

Utrecht VOC gulden (your coin) 1786: CV $100 in EF.
Utrecht VOC gulden 1790: CV $150 in EF.
Utrecht homeland type gulden 1786: CV $60 in EF.
Utrecht homeland type gulden 1790: CV $45 in EF.

So yes, Dutch coins with the VOC monogram are more valuable than otherwise identical coins without the monogram. Note that these values are only good for a comparison, as they're:
(a) from the 2002 edition of the catalogue, which is getting pretty old now.
(b) from an American book, and Australians will pay more for these coins (both the VOC and homeland types) because they're considered to be "proclamation coins".

As for Bryan's questions:

Quote:
WOW that is AU-50?

Personally I'd grade it gVF or low EF; I'd want to see a bit more of the lady's face on an AU coin.

Quote:
were they made with a hammer and punch?

As with most coins of the 1700's period, they were made on a screw-type press. The pressure to drive the screw press may have come from human muscle power, animal power or a water or (being Dutch) wind mill, but it's too early for it to have been steam-powered.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Goodasgold's Avatar
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2009  06:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really appreciate excellent info, Sapand also think echizento's grade a touch generous (have seen other's with face fully intact), but interested in rarity more so than actual grade.

And you're spot-on, as this one is from my (humble) "Proclamation Coins" collection.

Quite some time back I sourced some stuff from the net and duly printed it. Sorry can't remember exact source, but only recently dug it out again to read. A good little story, for what it is ....

VOC Coins - the first coins made for the Cape.

"The discussion about what were the first coins made for the Cape and therefore South Africa has had some serious coin collectors really involved, because they obviously give us a tangible link to a past process of colonisation of the Cape and the East with big commercial rivalry, mainly around control of the spice trade.

The "vereenigde Oost Indische Companie"(acronym VOC) was in History the world's first mega-corporation that was formed in 1602 and dissolved finally in 1800 after being nationalised by the Batavian republic in 1796. By its peak in 1669, it owned 150 merchant ships, warships... had 50,000 employees and an army of 10,000. It had quasi-governmental powers.

Its 'reason for' can be summarised as "Vergaan Onder Corruptie"although the 4th Anglo Dutch War of 1880 left it financially crippled (lost half its warships).

Mintage of its own coinage was forbidden until 1726 when it was then allowed to have coins minted initially in copper; Doits 1726-1794 (worth 1/4 silver Doit), Silver half Doits 1749-1751, then from 1766 to 1791, silver 3, 1 and 1/2 Gulder pieces bearing the VOC monogram were struck in the Netherlands. Six Provinces minted these Guldens and had their abbreviated names and emblems on the inscription ie 1. TRAI(ectum)(Utrecht). 2. ZEEI(andia)(Zeeland). 3. TRANSI(sulania). Overyssel. 4. D(ucatas)GEL(riae)&C(omitatus) Z(utphanidae)-Gelderland.

And the part that most interests me:

The few Dutch Gulden that did not have the VOC monogram in the Cape were valued at less than those that did and the exportation of those was stopped in 1786. It is fairly easy to get these non-VOC Guldens on the world market today, but the VOC stamped variety are very hard to find, and according to my source in Holland have an unknown mintage. Smelting of silver coinage was rife in the East at the time, and they became so scarce in the Cape that paper money (six silver Rixdollars) had to be made and used after 1782.

In the last month, some better quality VOC coins have been graded by NGC and are to be found in the Population report under Netherlands East Indies predating the 1802 Batavian Republic "Scheepies" Guldens and their fractions."

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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2009  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You, as I said I wasn't trying to be sarcastic with my remark it was mainly a question with the wow comment because I would have never guessed the grade that was quoted. I know the grade wasn't in question in the OP's question but I am always trying to hone my grading skills and since the opinion was given of grade I figured it would be a good time to try and educate myself on the minting process and anything else I could find out by the members here in the know about the series
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turtleoverhead's Avatar
Australia
585 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2010  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add turtleoverhead to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you.
Australian Proclamation coins are a fascinating lot.
I have 4 of these Guldens but unfortunately all without
VOC monogram.
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Goodasgold's Avatar
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2010  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Correct weight there, turtleoverhead. And interesting how history can link us to similar happenings elswhere in the world.

Here's more ...


Memorandum Regarding The Coinage Of The Early Cape From 1652

1602 - The United Dutch East India Company, Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, commonly known as the V.O.C, was founded in Holland with headquarters in Amsterdam where the council of Seventeen sat, a subsidiary Council acting at Batavia in Java.
Shares in the company were issued at 3,000 Guilden each, increasing in value by 380% in 1650, and by 570% in 1671.


This increase in capital value of the shares in the Company will help to explain the subsequent development at the Cape during the Company's regime.


When the Company was formed the silver "Real of Eight" or the "Reaal van Achten", originally issued by the Emperor Charles V in 1520, was the basic coin in circulation in the Low Countries, and at that period the equivalent English value of one Real was Five Shillings.


The V.O.C received from the Spanish Administration permission to strike similar Reals of Eight, but with different Arms and Inscriptions thereon for use in their Eastern trade, but not for issue in the Low Countries. These were minted at Middleburg and Dordrecht.
1622 - The Spanish Real was equivalent to 2 Guilden, and 8 Stivers or 48 Stivers equal to 4/- English.


1650 - William of Orange, later William III of England was born.


1652 - When Jan Van Riebeeck reached the Cape, the Spanish Real was the basic currency in use on board. In this year the V.O.C occupied the Cape as a victualling station for their East Indian fleet and for the sole benefit for the Company which had but one aim, i.e. to make the maximum monopoly profits for the share-holders.


1684 - The Gulden equalled 24 Stuivers or 24 Pennies English. Although Dutch currency was used at the Cape, the Rixdollar of 48 Stivers (Stuivers) become the recognised basic coin. As a unit in business transactions, the Cape Gulden or Guilden of 16 Stivers or 16 Pennies English was firmly established but did NOT exist as a coin.


1705 - The V.O.C established the Cape Rixdollar (rd) of 48 English Pennies for its own balance sheets, and those, inter alia, of the Orphan Chamber. The accounts were in Rixdollars of 8 Skillings or 48 Stivers. Thus for an example, 140 Stivers was equivalent to 2 Rixdollars, 7 Skillings and 2 Stivers was written as rds (Rixdollars). 2.7.2.


At the same time, the Spanish dollar or Real of Eight, and French or English Crowns were valued at 54 Stivers. German Reich Thalers or Russian Roubles equalled 48 Stivers, Dutch and Zeeland Rixdollars at 50 Stivers, and a Dutch Guilder at 24 Stivers.


In Holland a silver Ducatoon was equivalent to 63 Stivers or 72 at the Cape.
The increased value at the Cape is accounted for by the risk in transit, transport costs, handling charges, etc


1770 - The V.O.C valued the Cape Rixdollar at 4/- English and 2 4/10 Gulden Holland.
At the Cape the fictitious Cape Gulden equalled 16 Dutch Stivers and the same number of English Pence, while 3 Cape Gulden equalled 1 Rixdollar.


1781 - In consequence of the arrival of French troops, the standard of living was raised, with resulting increase in the cost of most articles - food, clothing and luxuries.
The Dutch Stuiver, one English Penny and ½ Cape Stiver were of the same value, while the fictitious Cape Gulden was the same as in 1770.


The following foreign coins were valued for exchange as follows:

Portuguese Johanna = 8 ½ Cape Rixdollars = 36/- English
So Called Gold Mooren = 7 Cape Rixdollars = 28/- English
Gold Rupee = 6 ½ Cape Rixdollars = 25/- English
Louis d'Or = 4 ¾ Cape Rixdollars = 19/- English
Quinji = 4 ¾ Cape Rixdollars = 19/- English
Peguinen = 2 ¼ Cape Rixdollars = 9/- English
Pagoden = 1 ¾ Cape Rixdollars = 7/- English
Persian or Moorish = 1 ½ Cape Rixdollars = 4/-
English Ductoon known in the Cape as Turquoison

and then...

PAPER CURRENCY STARTED PAYMENT OF THE TROOPS

1782 - A Florin or Two Shillings English was valued at 24 Dutch Stuivers or One-Half a Cape Rixdollar.

1784 - The following coins were received by the V.O.C from Holland:
Three Gulden pieces or 72 Stuivers or 12 Skillings
Daalden 36 Stuivers or 6 Skillings
The whole Gulden valued at 24 Stuivers or 4 Skillings

In consequence of the above, the V.O.C was enabled to exchange at the following rates:-

One Cape Dollar for 48 Stuivers
Six Skillings for 36 Stuivers
Four Skillings for 24 Stuivers
One Skilling for 6 Stuivers

1796 - First British Occupation.

1800 - Copper coins of one ounce weight (known locally as "dubbeltjies"), the large British Penny piece of 1797, were legal tender for Two Pence or Two Stuivers.

1803 - Cape returned to Holland

1803 - 1806 The Dutch Governor, De Mist, reported that the coins in circulation at the Cape were as follows: the Dollar, the Ducaton, the Driegulden, the Gulden, the Zesthalf (5 ½d) and the Double Stuiver.

At that date the Rixdollar and the Cape Gulden were used as commercial specie and not as coins, the Rixdollar being equivalent to 48 Stivers 2/3 Ductoon or Driegulden.

The Cape Gulden and 16 Stuivers wereof the same value. Three Cape Gulden and One Rixdollar were of the same value.

1806 - Second British Occupation of the Cape.

On the arrival of Sir David Baird, the same values were maintained save that the Doubloon of 16 Spanish Dollars is mentioned as equivalent to 160 Cape Skilling, or 960 Cape Stivers, corresponding to £4. 0. 0. Sterling, making One Cape Stiver equal to 1 Penny English, and 1 Cape Skilling equivalent to 6 Pence English.

The paper Rixdollar was assumed to be 4/- Sterling when at par but soon dropped to 1/6.

1810 - Paper Money:
1 Schilling = 2 ¼d
500 Rixdollars = about £40
1 Rixdollar = 1/6
The coin in general use was the Penny or Dubbeltjie, known to the Malays as "ou lap" equivalent in value to Two Pence.

1820 - The farm known as Fish Hoek is recorded in the archives as having been sold for "50,000 Cape Guilders or £1,250 English". This makes 40 Cape Guilders to the Pound Sterling or One Cape Guilder the equivalent of Six Pence English.

1825 - British silver money was adopted in this year and the paper Cape Rixdollar was valued at 1/6. Cape Gulder = 6d.

1826 - An order stated that the issue of British coins was tro be as follows:
Silver: 5/-, 2/6, 1/-, 6d
Copper: 1d, ½d, ¼d
Relative to paper money, the values were as follows:
1 Skilling = 2 ¼d
2 Skillings = 4 ½d
4 Skillings = 9d
1 Rixdollar = 1/6
2 Rixdollar = 3/-
500 Rixdollar = £37.10. 0.
1 Cape Gulden = 6d
40 Cape Gulden = £1. 0. 0.

The latter figure corresponds to the figures quoted in the records of the price paid for the farm Fish Hoek in 1820

1866 - A fine of Rixdollars 666.5.2 equalled £50 English, making the value of a Rixdollar as in 1825, i.e. 1/6.

1868 - One Rixdollar was valued at 2/6

1881 - Currency placed on a Gold basis

Many variations recur in the spelling of Shilling, Skilling, Schilling, Stuiver, Stiver etc. The spelling used under each date is that quoted in the context of the references.

Thanks to: Coinoissuer
Les.
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