Cn Indian Head Cent / IHC S -- How Do You Detect Cleaning At Higher Grades?

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Author	Replies: 5 / Views: 1,725
pierrot New Member United States 46 Posts	Posted 01/19/2010 6:41 pm So I've been in the market for a while for a high-grade CN IHC. I bought a handful of examples in the VF range from a local dealer last year and, having had some time to admire them, I'm really falling in love with the color of the metal and the '59-64 coins are quickly becoming one of my overall favorite coin types. As I haven't been able to find any AU-UNC ones locally, I've had to turn to the internet. Problem is, after looking over ebay for a couple of days, I've lost my confidence in being able to tell a natural example from a problem example because, at least to my untrained eyes, cleaned examples look exactly the same as uncleaned examples around the MS level. Observe the kinds of thing causing my predicament. The following coins were all graded PCGS Genuine for cleaning: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT Whereas these all received grades: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT Of course, the pictures on the graded examples aren't as good as those on the cleaned examples, but hopefully you should be able to see why someone inexperienced like me would be puzzled. Whereas silver coins can look too "chromey" and polished, reflect light in a giveaway manner, etc. these CN IHCs all seem to have the same bright tan-yellow-gray color and just plain don't look "wrong" at a glance. On the first PCGS Genuine example, I can kind of make out scuffing and maybe a little porosity on the obverse that evidences cleaning, but for the most part everything looks identical. Are there finer details in the coloration that I'm overlooking, or is the evidence of cleaning just so fine that it's hard to make it out from photographs? I need to know what I'm doing before I can invest any money in one of these. Thanks for any help. Edited by pierrot 01/19/2010 6:43 pm Report this Post to the Staff

rustyboy Valued Member United States 278 Posts	Posted 01/19/2010 6:51 pm Great question. I am looking forward to the experts' opinion. Report this Post to the Staff
Bryan1315 Bedrock of the Community United States 14454 Posts	Posted 01/20/2010 07:52 am I am no expert on these things but I can take a picture of mine and maybe that will help. It looks like maybe its the color they are going by but every camera and lighting is different so that is going to be hard to judge with pictures in my opinion. This one was a PCGS MS-62 Report this Post to the Staff
biokemist6 Bedrock of the Community United States 12437 Posts	Posted 01/20/2010 10:40 am link #1- color is excessively bright and brassy looking, hairlines visible across neck and date link #2- excessively bright color again and surfaces are dull with no visible luster- inconsistent with level of wear link #3- hard to tell what is going on, slab pics are not good enough and the close-up pics are of an entirely different coin(1898) link #4- natural light tan color for a lower AU coin link #5- hard to see the luster but coin has a nice mellow patina with hints of red at the periphery link #6- luster is more evident than #5 and it has a bit more of a coppery red color but the extreme level of obverse die wear makes this one a bit unattractive IMO Color is one of the biggest indicators for cleaned copper coins and when you look at many many coins and gain experience from that, you learn to recognize color that looks "right" and color that looks "wrong". However, even experienced collectors get it wrong sometimes too Luster is another important factor. If a coin is high AU/MS the luster should be evident and lack of luster is an almost certain indication of a cleaning. And of course, the most obvious sign is hairlines as an indicator of mechanical cleaning. Remember that forming an opinion of a coin from photographs can be difficult because not everyone can take a great coin photo and then there is the occasional problem of digital manipulation as well. It should be much easier when you have a coin in-hand and can look at it with a loupe and rotate it under good lighting conditions. Report this Post to the Staff
Jaobler Pillar of the Community United States 6381 Posts	Posted 01/20/2010 11:23 am Images for the no-problem coins and the third "genuine" cent are too small for me to have a solid opinion, but I agree with Biokemist on the first two: The 1863 has horizontal hairline scratches on the obverse around the date, across the neck, and in the lower-left obverse field. This coin has nice luster but the hairlines were enough for PCGS to disqualify it for grade. The 1864 has no hairlines I can see but the overall look is dull and there is no evidence of cartwheel luster. Compare it to the 1863 and the difference I think is pretty obvious. I would guess the 1863 was lightly rubbed which caused the scratches but did not impair the luster. The 1864 was excessively dipped which degraded the luster, without creating scratches. In both cases the high-grade original coins were permanently damaged and their values reduced by maybe half. Report this Post to the Staff
CuprousCoin Valued Member United States 226 Posts	Posted 01/25/2010 8:48 pm your best bet is to purchase certified high grade examples from someone reputable, and/or "learn" how to grade and detect problems by viewing lots and lots of coins at shows, coin shops, etc. Rick Snow's website Indiancent.com has lots of great examples to compare with. here are a few of mine: * weakness at feather tips is strike not wear Report this Post to the Staff
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Cn IHCs -- How Do You Detect Cleaning At Higher Grades?