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Two New US Forgeries To Add To Your List

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Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2006  10:45 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I just noticed a pair of US coins being sold in private auctions by a Taiwanese seller noted for sales of forged world coins. He is new to ebay - starting in March 2006. But he has 112 positives from 116 different users - a 100% rating. Here are the two listings:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...m=8428438801

This one is an Isabella Commemorative quarter that taken by itself looks pretty good. The high bidder certainly has been fooled. The scan is too vague to be positive about this one particular coin, but in a classic case of "Guilt by Association" you can definitely tell that his other offerings are standard bogus coins.

The second listing is for a fairly recent forgery. It is an 1809 US Bust Half Dollar which is one of my favorite types. I have only noticed this copy on the market for about two months, so I suspect it is very new to their inventory of dies. It slipped by me on the first few postings but the third or fourth time I saw the same Overton die pair offered by the members of the Peiking group, I got really suspicious. The pictures lack many of the typical diagnostics at this scale. You really need a larger scan to notice the serious problems, but look at the dentils on the obverse between the date and star 7. Look closely at the way they are shadowed and you can see a change of direction that gives away a distortion in the die (or mold) used to make this forgery. On originals the dentils are a die feature that was cut into the die along a straight line surface - they shouldn't bend or have an angle point along an arc that mimics the edge of the struck coin. The dies used for Bust Half Dollars were larger than the planchets and there was no striking collar so the pressure of the strike caused a spread of the planchet without any distortion such as you encounter on more modern collared strikes. But it looks good enough in isolation to get bids over $100 easily.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...m=8428438801

How do I know? I violate ebay rules by copying photos to a file on my PC. These sellers are saavy enough not to post two identical copies at the same time. They use multiple identities (at least 6 that mail coins from the same address) and they wait about 30 days between postings on the same ID name. That way the old auctions are gone before the new copies are posted. I have a large file of old postings and in many cases you can actually spot die identical die markers in the form of post strike damage on coins with different toning patterns.

Now take a look at the more commonly enountered junk copies that everyone is (or should be) aware of:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...m=8428323070

This is a pretty good rendering of the 1875 S Trade dollar - looks good but notice the seam line on the raised edge on the reverse.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...m=8428322752

This is a common forgery of the Chinese Dragon Dollar with a very visable seam line on the reverse (side without the Dragon). This coin also has the typical "dull" surface texture of a transfer copy made with dental plastic.

Just watch this fellow's offerings over a couple months (and violate ebay rules by making copies of his pictures) and you will notice that he offers repeated copies of a few date coins but very rarely any others. Why are all of his Bust Halves dated 1809? How come he never posts an 1834? How come all of his coins are always in about the same grade and have great eye appeal? OH, and why do you sometimes find that the coins have the same dents and dings?

If you don't know the answer to that last question you need to ask before you buy another coin on ebay or any place else.



Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2006  10:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I accidentally posted the Isabell twice. Here is the 1809 Half

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...m=8428435635

Valued Member
Mooseknuckle's Avatar
United States
95 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2006  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mooseknuckle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the great heads up on this!

I know we have two stickies at the top of this forum for good/bad ebay sellers, but it's tough to sort through all of the posts there. Is there a compact consolidated list anywhere here? If one cannot be added to this site, would anyone have any interest in using one if I started it?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2006  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the most serious problems with a group like the Beijing ring is the simple number of IDs they use. They have a series of identities already established (so they never look too new) and as soon as one becomes known they shift to a new one. Nearly every old ID that I have gotten coins from is no longer in use. They change names like socks - far better to educate bidders/lookers to know what the fake material looks like and what the danger signals are.

Before they routinely switched to Private identities and feedbacks many of them got perfect ratings by buying 10 or 15 items for less than a dollar just to get feedbacks. Then they waited until the "New Memeber" label went away - then they start selling rare items all at once. I have seen them go from $0 in sales to $12,000 in ONE weekend. Then they disappear as the negatives roll in and never use the ID again. It is a profitable dodge that way. By the time it becomes obvious they have moved on and the ID is history. I have been watching this play out in real time since the end of 1999.

Some of these guys have gotten better at getting away with it and they have hundreds of positives with only a few negatives. They offer refunds (less postage charges which are established to cover the actual cost of the coin) and claim they are victims of fraud too. They don't leave feedback when paid so they can retaliate and avoid negatives that way. But I have actually received envelopes that come from the same address in Beijing from several sellers in DIFFERENT countries. So this ring is getting far better at deception. One ID was located in New York but the actual coin was mailed from China.

The best thing might be a consolidated list of known forged dates by denomination and country - but that would soon look a lot like a Krause Catalog of World Coins. I own over 3,000 counterfeit varieties at present and I don't even specialize in general world forgeries.
Rest in Peace
Morgan Fred's Avatar
United States
2684 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2006  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgan Fred to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, from the appearances of these forgeries, they appear to be stampings instead of the usual castings. Am I correct on this or is my eyesight just getting worse? If they are stampings, the counterfeiters are getting more sophisticated and, I would extrapolate from there, are a larger operation involving a number of people rather than a basement shop run by just one guy. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Fred
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2006  10:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fred, Many of the newer operations are fairly large and sophisticated. They manufacture dies - roll stock - cut and upset planchets and STRIKE their coins. Most recently they have begun to strike coins in full weight silver. So you are no longer dealing with the smaller guy making crude castings in his home shop. Because of legal differences - coin manufacturing operations in China and Romania are not illegal. The manufacture is treated as an art form. The Romanians are heavily into ancient coins while the Chinese are making more modern coins. There are forgers in Beijing willing to manufacture dies to order. I was given a firm quote for a pair of steel dies copying any Mexican 8R I wanted for $2600 a pair. At this cost, you can see that a large number of copies must be made to cover the investment.

Not all strikes are made from steel dies however. There are newer dental plastics that are very high strength which can be used to make dies with very limited lives. The materials cost $30 or so per die and die production takes minutes not hours or days. This is ideal for forging scarcer coins. Using a dental plastic does not destroy the host coin like impact transfer does so you get some salvage value. A plastic die can make a few strikes to a few dozen strikes in softened silver before they fracture.

The cast copies are usually rather obvious in photos - but these struck copies are far more deceptive.

So greater care needs to be exercised than ever before.
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