Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Variety Book

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 2,968Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1353 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  12:57 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A new Charlton publication for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Some-Die-Variet...ss_W0QQitemZ310198930104QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_2?hash=item48394c0ab8
http://www.victoriancent.com

2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  01:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
a rather steep price for a Charlton without pricing guides
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1353 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The research on Canadian one cent varieties is emerging. You won't find an accurate pricing guide on them until they become adequately identified and their relative rarities become known in the market place.
http://www.victoriancent.com

2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Pillar of the Community
D's Avatar
Canada
899 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  02:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bosox..you brought up a great point when you said "The research on Canadian one cent varieties is emerging"

Most of us are familiar with the known varieties that do exsist now such as double date, near and far, small and big, a dot here and a dot there and so on.

Couple of things that have puzzled me regarding this are:

1 - What research is involved and what factors determine a new variety

2 - Who decides that "yes on this coin we declare a new variety"

Any and all comments are appreciated as I am here to learn....



Edited by D
02/06/2010 03:33 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great questions D23
when I have more time, I will have some very interesting input here, actual experiences in getting a very obvious variety recognized...
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1353 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are as many answers to what consititutes a variety as there are collectors. That is to say, each collector determines which varieties are of enough interest enough to collect.

The spectrum of variety collecting is quite wide. On one end we have collectors who only collect varieties listed in certain catalogs or price lists. Take for example Victorian cents. The Trends section of Canadian Coin News lists 41 different Victorian cents, but they represent only 21 dates. Obviously quite a few of the 41 are varieties.

Perhaps the most interesting variety year is 1859, represented in Trends by the Narrow 9, the Low 9, the brass 1859, the W9/8 medal (normal) alignment, the W9/8 coinage (inverted) alignment, the DP#1, and the DP#2. I ask you; did these seven variations of the 1859 become so popular with collectors that the catalogs had to list them, or did listing them in the catalogs make them popular?

If you look closely at these seven 1859 variations, you will see that their origins are quite varied. The brass cent and the coinage axis W9/8 are error coins, caused by mistakes at The Royal Mint.

Narrow 9 cents were minted by over 100 reverse dies, each having the 9 of the date manually punched into that die. Several of these dies had the 9 punched into it in a low position, hence the Low 9. The DP#2 had the 9 punched twice into the die. The DP#1 also had the 9 punched twice into the die, but a true DP#1 only exists in the very late die state of that die, after the small die chip formed the tail at the bottom. The W9/8 are cents that had a 9 punched over an 1858 date.

Why are these five 1859 variations listed and widely collected, while numerous other similar 1859 variations are not? For example, some of the other re-punched 9 variations are much rarer than the DP#1, yet not as widely collected. Twelve different reverse dies (some rare and some common) minted W9/8 cents, yet catalogs lump them all into one variety. I submit that the answer is that the catalogs made these variations popular and the collectors followed the catalogs.

I estimate that over 1,500 dies (obverse and reverse) minted Victorian cents. They were sunk by dozens of punches (hubs). Almost all of the dies were damaged, repaired, or otherwise altered in the process. As a result, each working die and die marriage used to mint the Victorian cent series is unique and different from the rest. Some differences are very minor and some are quite obvious. Collecting Victorian cents by these die marriages forms the other end of the variety collecting spectrum, one that American early copper collectors have embraced for decades.

As perspective on the quantities of dies out there, in my first two books I catalogued 54 die marriages for 1858 cents and 18 die marriages for 1859 wide 9 over 8 cents. In my third book I described the matrices and punches used to mint the entire Victorian cent series and catalogued 35 die marriages used to mint 1891 cents. This research took two years and close examination of thousands of large cents.

So, in answer to your questions:

This type of research takes thousands of hours looking at coins and making sense of where they fit in the matrix, punch, and die hierarchy of Victorian cents. In my opinion each die marriage is a variety. Some of those vary further by die state (progressive die wear and damage). Some of these die marriages are more in demand than others because the salient feature is more visible, or more interesting.

You decide what is a variety in your mind and which ones you want to collect. You decide where on the spectrum you want to be. Use the catalogs and the price lists as a guide, but put them down periodically and look closely at the coins. You will be amazed at what is out there.




http://www.victoriancent.com

2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Valued Member
dan-in-crystal-lake's Avatar
United States
493 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I ordered my copy of Jacks work today. I'm anxious for it to get here. It was clearly the best variety guide for large cents when it was first published.

As for the question on what makes a variety, I agree with bosox on this. As a collector I can choose to collect a nice date set of Vicky large cents. As soon as I make the decision to collect by obverse type I have then started to collect by variety. Deeper into that vein, go the date sizes, near and far stuff etc. How far do you want to take it? It's an individual decision.

As a researcher, I look for the tell tale identification marks left from individual dies. Each different one is a variety for me. Is that too deep? For some it is, for others not. It is a very individual thing.

If you want to check out serious variety collectors, just look at the US large and 1/2 cent group and how they catalog their varieties. It goes beyond just the die identification, it gets to early, mid, late die states. Those guys are serious!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
totally agree with Dan and bosox.
HOWEVER, the question still remains: when does is a certain coin become a recognized a variety?
example: 47-49 cents , A to or between denticles.
I have a coin, also a 1 cent piece, with anumber either to or between a denticle. There are more than one and for sure it is NOT a worn die with either. Nor is it some kind of a coin rotation. It is very clearly two different strikes... BUT the reigning powers are ignoring it..
I have another, very similar issues, very clear strikes with a small Zero and the other with a FAT zero.. again, definitely 2 different issues.
I rest my case.... I tried to get it recognized... IT was ignored and after being asked to ship the coins for an evaluation by W.C.(publisher, yes of...), the coins came back ....NO comment... perhaps worn dies.......Yes, and heck will freeze over one day too..
H
might consider posting the pictures tomorrow.
Valued Member
dan-in-crystal-lake's Avatar
United States
493 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2010  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you are a member of the RCNA, consider writing an article and getting it published in the CN Journal. Publishing in a recognized media source is always a good start. :-)
Valued Member
dan-in-crystal-lake's Avatar
United States
493 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2010  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK the book arrived today and I'm not disappointed. There is new material and photographs where his original work had none. This is a must have for any large cent collector. The material is a bit dated being original in 1992 and has been eclipsed by Turner for 1858 and 1859/8's and 1891. Until other material gets published, this and old Zoell's will continue to be the bible for the remaining large cents.

By the way, I was fortunate to pick up a couple of coins from Jacks original collection. They arrived this week.
Pillar of the Community
papeldog's Avatar
Canada
1923 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2010  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just received mine today and I agree it's a must for any large cent collector and at $45.00 plus $8.00 Canadian is a great buy.
Valued Member
dan-in-crystal-lake's Avatar
United States
493 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2010  05:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
papeldog,

The thing about this book is it is a reprint of Jacks work from 1992 with some pics added. Jack didn't add the pics so they were matched to his work by someone else so some of the matchings are incorrect which is a shame. The 1858, 1859/8 and 1891 series are all better dealt with by Turner in his books printed 2007-9
Pillar of the Community
papeldog's Avatar
Canada
1923 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2010  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Dan I have noticed some things that didn't sound right in the description to the #'s but it does have a lot of picture's of different varieties that a person can refer to.
Pillar of the Community
Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2010  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@hhbkiddo: A book with attention to fine details and helping you identify and grade your varieties to me sounds like a better choice to have as a reference text than a lunk of prices that are due to change once printed. If you need something to last you many years, then this is the type of book you need. That extra $35 will pay for itself.
  Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 2,968Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.54 seconds to rattle this change. Forums