| Author |
Replies: 49 / Views: 19,230 |
|
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: After getting all the possible moisture out, many people then coat the coin in a protective wax to keep out any future humidity. A lot use Renaissance Wax, although I hear regular furniture Min Wax will also seal it fine. Might want to get some other opinions on the Min Wax, but Ren Wax is what the British Museum uses, so I would hope that one would be on the "ok to use" list.
Interesting, thanks for that tidbit. It makes a lot of sense. On the museum level heavy duty protection is warranted. These are important pieces and the regular numismatic concerns are trumped. However, its hard to me to recommend wax to a numismatist and I must question the purity of the wax. There is still going to be trace level impurities of harmful chemicals in the wax. Noting is 100% pure and over time these impurities will react with the surface.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: One of the problemes with almost any sure cure for such reactions with Bronze is actually the materials that make up Bronze. Note that Bronze and Brass are basically composed of Copper. Normally Brass is Copper, 1% Tin, 30% Zinc approxiamately. Bronze, however, although is also primarily Copper, it also contains Tin and varieous other substances such as Manganese, Aluminum, Phosphorus, even silicon and many, many other substances to make it appear as the users prefer. In most, not all, instances where anything containing Copper turns Green, it is usually due to a reaction with a Sulfurous type of Acid. In many areas where Sulfur rich coal is burned, power stations and many factories with boilers, the emissions are SO or SO2. This mixes with the moisture in the air in the form of H OH, otherwise noted as H2O, producing the mild type of H2SO3 or H2SO4 in the air. In such areas people find their Copper pipes, Copper grounding systems, Copper Fenials on top of buildings turning Green from this what is normally called Acid Rain. In some areas it is so bad major comapanies have gone to insulated grounding systmes or even Lead covered Copper wiring. In the Illinois area ComEd Electric has gone to almost all coated wiring for grounding systems and in many places have replaced Copper Ground Rods with Stainless Steel due to the amount of Acid Rain in that area. The point is possibly in your area such air contaminates are present and not much in the way of removing moisture from the coins will be that much benificial. I would actually try to soak those coins in very warm distilled water for a while, then blow dry them with a warm hair dryer. After that do anything you can to stop any air from getting to those or any Copper type of coins. Many such containers on the market for just that purpose.
Correct with the other metallic coin "impurities". Copper is quite complex and contains many other metals/substances. It is these, water and a myriad of atmospheric gases that produce verdigirs. Soaking in distilled water is good advice.
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: I have very little experience with ancient bronze coins; however, I've seen references to heating the coins at about 240 Degrees F for 20-30 minutes. I'm assuming this is drive away any residual moisture which would then reduce/stop the bronze disease. Good luck with this problem. Wayne I would never recommend heating coins at that high of a temperature for that long. Copper sulfate melts at 230°F, copper acetate melts at a few degrees higher, you may exacerbate a verdigris problem by allow it to spread out. Also, that is hot enough that it will start to effect the patina. If a mistake is made, a modern oven is capable of reaching the melting point of tin (about 450°F), this will cause permanent damage. However...if a coin is not of particullarly high value, I might be tempted to completely vaporize the verdigris with high heat. Simply heating the coin to 450-500°F should completely remove the verdigirs. The price is complete removal of the origina patina.
Edited by BadThad 03/20/2010 10:08 pm
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: By chemical reactions inside the coin, I'm referring to what I've read about bronze conservation of antiquities from experts in this field. I am a retired chemist, have zero experience in ancient artifact conservation, but do recall reading that this bronze disease can continue even though an effort has been made to seal the coin's surface. I think some of the confusion might be that at the microscopic level it is extremely difficult to completely isolate a coin from the surrounding environment...even with the clear tape you mentioned molecules of air and other gaseous contaminants can still get through. In order to be more specific I would have to do a little research on the chemistry of the bronze disease to refresh my memory on what is happening to the internal structure of the coin. However, I do recall that the science and chemistry regarding this continuing degradation inside a presumably sealed coin seemed consistent with basic chemistry reactions.
Chemical reactions will only occur on the surface. Within a metal's crystalline matrix the atoms are too tightly packed for anything to "slip in". The only thing that is happening "interally" is the migration of micro-currents. In all metals there are regions of positive and negative charge that cause electron flow. With a "sealed" coin the continuing verdigris formation occurs on a ultra-microscale (as I discussed in my book excerpt). If you look at the acid reactions, you can see no air or water are required. The activation energy to push the "reverse verdigris" formation is supplied by the metallic micro-currents, which is aided by temperature fluctuations. I strongly suspect air and water still make it to the surface on these wax "sealed" coins. It may be on a very, very small scale, but it makes it there eventually. The combination of the continuing supply of air and water along with the micro-currents, verdigris formation continues. This serves to forever perpetuate the myth that verdigris formation is a "disease".
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
|
|
Valued Member
India
229 Posts |
i would treat it verdi gone
if it was an indian coin I would have used another brand that I cant remember. it usually destroys the patina but on indian coins the dust is so thick that it actually doesn't destroy the patina and for most coins you get result under a minute
Bad Thad,
Please elaborate on the museum protection concept
some of my coins need as good if not better protection
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Here is an interesting article on how to clean old coins. Quote: 15th International School on Quantum Electronics: Laser Physics and Applications. Edited by Dreischuh, Tanja; Taskova, Elena; Borisova, Ekaterina; Serafetinides, Alexander. Proceedings of the SPIE, Volume 7027, pp. 702707-702707-10 (2008). Laser cleaning tests were performed on ancient (Roman and Byzantine) coins, which belong to the collection of the Numismatic Museum of Athens, Greece. Coins with various types of surface corrosion were studied, using Q-switched Nd:YAG, CO2 and Er:YAG lasers and a range of laser pulsing parameters on dry and wet surfaces. A section of each object was cleaned mechanically, by the conservators of the museum in order to show the results of this method. It was discovered that the results of laser cleaning was influenced by the type of corrosion of the surface of the coins. X-ray fluorescence was applied as analytical technique. The results show that XRF could provide detail information about the surface chemical nature of the treated objects, as well as about their past and present state and it leaded to recommendations for restoration with the appropriate laser cleaning conditions. Now just run out and purchase yourself one of those.  I still say just soak any contaminated coins in Distilled water for several hours or even days. If a coin is even slightly on the expensive side, cooking in an oven should be kept to Pizzas.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: i would treat it verdi gone
if it was an indian coin I would have used another brand that I cant remember. it usually destroys the patina but on indian coins the dust is so thick that it actually doesn't destroy the patina and for most coins you get result under a minute
Bad Thad,
Please elaborate on the museum protection concept
some of my coins need as good if not better protection
VERDI-GONE™ is not recommended for this coin or for any coin with heavy verdigris. It would have minimal effect. I cannot recommend using waxes on coins to any numismatist. They are very difficult if not nearly impossible to remove. This is a method best left to museums where numismatic value is rather unimportant.
|
|
New Member
United States
36 Posts |
Brad's quote: "Chemical reactions will only occur on the surface. Within a metal's crystalline matrix the atoms are too tightly packed for anything to "slip in"."
Well, if you are going to talk about chemistry then you should learn chemistry first. Not only is your comment not true, but if you would review your freshman chemistry you will see that atoms are mostly space. "Too tightly packed and nothing can slip in?" How about you put a thin sheet of pure copper in front of you and then have someone aim x-rays in your direction and we'll see what slips through. We're dealing with ancient bronze coins...we're not talking about a hunk of 99% copper here, or a hunk of a reasonably pure copper alloy. Really, these things have been in the ground for two millenia and to say that chemical reactions on these coins will only occur on the surface defies logic, common sense, and any chemistry I studied.
I'm done with this posting: I've stated that I have no experience in conserving ancient bronze coins and I was only stating what I had read from experts in this field. Do what you please with these coins but it has always been my experience that there is a reason why experts are called experts....they generally know more than others. If anyone has a bronze coin with bronze disease please consult someone who has dealt with this issue before.
And for anyone who believes that chemical reactions will only occur on the surface of these coins then please take a look at the photos provided on the first page of this posting. And then explain to me where the surface begins and ends...if these coins were examined under high magnification one would probably see voids extending throughout the entire coin, or what is left of the coin (s).
|
|
New Member
United States
36 Posts |
Here are the pertinent chemical reactions that involve the destruction of ancient bronze coins:
Cu -e >> Cu+ Cu++ Cl->> CuCl 4CuCl + 4H2O + O2>> CuCl2·3Cu(OH)2+ 2HCl
This last substance is known as hydorchloric acid, which in turn will react with copper in the following reaction:
2Cu + 2HCl >> 2CuCl + H2
The chloride ion can come from salt water, the soil or from both. This last reaction will continue until all the copper is gone. One can call the process whatever one wants---the end result is the end of the coin. Unless, of course, one can find a way to eliminate water, oxygen, or chloride salts from the above equations.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: Well, if you are going to talk about chemistry then you should learn chemistry first. Not only is your comment not true, but if you would review your freshman chemistry you will see that atoms are mostly space. "Too tightly packed and nothing can slip in?" How about you put a thin sheet of pure copper in front of you and then have someone aim x-rays in your direction and we'll see what slips through. We're dealing with ancient bronze coins...we're not talking about a hunk of 99% copper here, or a hunk of a reasonably pure copper alloy. Really, these things have been in the ground for two millenia and to say that chemical reactions on these coins will only occur on the surface defies logic, common sense, and any chemistry I studied.
Why the personal attact? I have a BS in chemistry from Indiana University and I have been a chemist for 22 years. I think I qualify as having studied chemistry. We are simply having a discussion here, there is no thread "war". I don't believe there were any personal attacks up to your post. You may recant your statement now.  We are talking about chemical interactions and not x-rays or sub-atomic particles. Tell me how you can get, for example, a chlorine atom inside a surface or between copper atoms in a metallic, crystalline state. If there's chemical reactions inside the non-exposed copper surface, please explain them. Perhaps I can learn some chemistry. 
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2150 Posts |
Quote: Well, if you are going to talk about chemistry then you should learn chemistry first 
|
|
New Member
United States
36 Posts |
Good Lord, I'm not talking about putting a chlorine atom between two copper atoms, I'm talking about a chlorine atom reacting WITH a copper atom. Why is it so hard for you to understand this simple concept? And I repeat, your comment that chemical reactions cannot take place in the interior of a coin is ridiculous. Teach you chemistry? What could be more simple than stating that a copper atom can react with a chlorine atom to produce Copper (I) Chloride? Why do you insist that I'm trying to shove chlorine atoms between two copper atoms? I'm not. It is a copper atom reacting with a chlorine atom. It is also called freshman chemistry, Chemistry 1A, bonehead chemistry....perhaps you need to get your chemistry books out of storage and review them.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1534 Posts |
Sfchemist, I think you should relax a little. Thad is extremely knowledgeable in his respective field, and there is no need for you to attack him like that.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19960 Posts |
Quote: Good Lord, I'm not talking about putting a chlorine atom between two copper atoms, I'm talking about a chlorine atom reacting WITH a copper atom. Why is it so hard for you to understand this simple concept? And I repeat, your comment that chemical reactions cannot take place in the interior of a coin is ridiculous. Teach you chemistry? What could be more simple than stating that a copper atom can react with a chlorine atom to produce Copper (I) Chloride? Why do you insist that I'm trying to shove chlorine atoms between two copper atoms? I'm not. It is a copper atom reacting with a chlorine atom. It is also called freshman chemistry, Chemistry 1A, bonehead chemistry....perhaps you need to get your chemistry books out of storage and review them.
Don't be so offensive and we can all get along. That is the nature of this forum....to discuss. This is what you said: Quote: however, chemical reactions within the interior of the coin can still occur resulting in damage and destruction of the bronze coin.
I thought I spelled out the reactions a few posts back. Did you read it? You said there was an "internal reaction". When a reactive atom such as a chlorine radical attacks copper, the reaction occurs at the surface. It doesn't magically pull copper atoms from below the surface. I'm simply stating it's a surface reaction and not an "internal" reaction.
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
Edited by BadThad 03/21/2010 10:40 pm
|
|
New Member
United States
36 Posts |
Brad you are correct and I apologize. I didn't read your post carefully enough and I over reacted. I'm sitting here watching the health care debate on television with a wife suffering from ovarian cancer who lost her health insurance. Fortunately she qualifies for Medicare but this whole HCR debate has been a frustrating experience for us...I'm upset, frustrated, and I should have taken the time to thoroughly read your posts. I'm am sorry. Wayne
|
| |
Replies: 49 / Views: 19,230 |
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us | Advertise Here | Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
|
| Coin Community Forum |
© 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums |
| It took 0.5 seconds to rattle this change. |
 |
|