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 Replies: 62 / Views: 16,303 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
I think like all of us I'm coming across more and more TPG slabbed coins. I've stated before I'm not a believer in TPG coins for my own collection probably more because they accentuate the raw dollars of a collection and don't do anything for it's beauty. I do use them though and don't have a problem with others who keep slabbed coins. It's a hobby full of choice. That having been said and put aside -off to the topic at hand. First off I'm going that US TPG's usually upgrade when it comes to Canadian coins. They seem to have made standards I can't and often don't follow when I look at the same piece. Example, long time buddy bought a 48 50 cent pieces graded AU58 by PCGS. I looked at it and said AU 50. We cracked it and he sent it to CCCS and bingo AU 50. We cracked it again and sent it to ICCS and it came back AU50. That's just the one example. I could understand if PCGS slapped an AU 55 on it. I struggled with that and I bet whoever else looked at it did too but like a lot of these 50 centers the upper left flag was just a bit too weak to make the 55 so down it went. The PL's I see from US TPG's are usually pretty close, generally run a point high. A good way to take a PL from a 65 to a 66 is just send it down south. But I'm finding incredible likeness in grading between ICCS and CCCS ... I mean I bet they're grading alike 99% of time. Thoughts on this? Am I imagining things? Additional comments? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
I don't think I will face much opposition in saying that although they are often times similar, ICCS is a harder grader than CCCS. I had a phase when I really liked CCCS graded coins, but started finding some inconsistencies in the grading. I find ICCS to be way more consistent.
I know there are a lot of CCCS fans on this site, but personally it's ICCS for me. I have had conversations with a couple of dealers who have told me that ICCS is the way to go. The CCCS guy (his name escapes me at the moment), is a good grader, but that he has, on occassion, asked these dealers their opinion of a coin.
I guess I would consider Brian (ICCS) the expert, and CCCS just another pro.
Who cares if ICCS is a harder grader, everyone knows this and takes it into consideration when pricing.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
Hello UGLY,
great topic...and of interest to ALL of us.
First off, next week I will have around 250 high end Canadian coins, with empasis on 1 cent 5 cent and Dollars going to Quebec.... NOT Ontario.
I am fed up with not having transparency, unable to get information, and high nosed attitudes.
There was ramble some time ago, just for a short time, that CCCS would grade high(er) than the others just to get business. Personally, I strongly believe this NOT TO BE TRUE. Why would anyone do such a foolish thing which only would eventually back fire.
What is true, is that Louis did have some specials to entice more people. I believe this was very successful and he has sometimes more business that he"should" handle.
As or the grading have seen, YOU are very correct!! he is extremely Knowledgable, accommodating and always very helpful. You can ask him questions and he patiently answers all of them. He accommodates favors by listing varieties... AND he has a database that is available ON LINE,, not by fax or phone...
some of the coins I am sending have been to Ontario. 2 of them have been there 2 times with different results every time, one of them has been there 4 times... 3 different results.
However, Louis also was through off guard once by declaring that all 13 coins I sent him are whizzed. 12 of them were...he assumed, because the 13th was a "white 5 cent piece" they all were. He is getting it again... and we shall see. This coin came from a collector who had it is his collection since 1945 when he started collecting... I bought the collection..most 60 and better.
enough for now...
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
JG 86
some time ago there was a post by, I believe Glency,
what happens when Brian is no longer with us....? who will grade coins then?
his son Scott? NOT..!! Bill Cross ? No NOT NOT NOT
W H O ?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
I'm not talking about the future though. I'm just talking at present. If the company dies with him, so be it, the coins marked ICCS will still be valued as they are today.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1733 Posts |
Well I'm trying to stay away from "who's the future" type discussions. Make another thread for that. I think one of the three US top tiers will eventually migrate to Toronto and make it miserable for everyone until they have more Canuck coin grading specialists. No one can know every coin. I mean I really only claim any knowledge between 1900-1960 because that's what interests me and I know for sure I'm a lousy nickel grader tending to be too conservative. But..
I'm more interested in comparative grading between the two as it exists today. Other side benefits put aside, how are you finding the grading?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Personally for me, I don't really care what grade a company gives a coin, so long as they are consistent.
If CCCS and ICCS were both 100% consistent, and ICCS was 1 grade higher every time, I would be content with either, I'd just keep in mind to pay the same for a MS63 by CCCS as I would for a MS64 by ICCS.
With respect to consistency, I would say most of the coins I have owned by CCCS were consistent, but there were 2 (that I can think of) where I strongly disagreed with the grade given. I honestly don't think I've ever had that issue with ICCS.
Either way, they are both legitimate companies. At least they aren't one of those other companies who grade everything MS65.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9866 Posts |
The ICCS vs. CCCS debate will go on ad nauseum.My experience is that of about 80 cccs graded 25 cent coins two(both Edwards)are not graded properly,of about 240 ICCS coins 11 missed the mark(1 Edward,4 GeoV,and 6 GeoVI)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
Yeah just to clarify, I wasn't looking to do the Fraser vs Ali debate but to present some data the way you have. At the end of the day any TPG who is taken seriously will influence top level coin prices for many years to come by grading and ignoring or not reporting varieties etc... Whether I like it or not these guys affect my hobby and I am trying to get a grip on how much and how accurately they do so. edited for typos... must be the yips. Edited by Ugly
04/16/2010 1:38 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts |
ICCS was the standard in Canada. Due to grade creep (proven) in the last 3 years the consistency of an ICCS item has been destroyed. If an ICCS holder has the water mark of an older holder....then in my opinion it is GOSPEL! CCCS is by far stricter on 5 cent and Dollar coins (my area of interest). CCCS is accountable, approachable and honest. They have no ties with Charletons, they answer to no one but the collector. Dealers like ICCS for numerous reasons, grade consistency (lately) a dealer could careless about. Oh yeah......ICCS has hundreds of holders out there with swapped coins. Also, there are numerous 1923 and 1925 cent holders from ICCS with COUNTERFEIT coins in them.........Some tampered as it was obvious...others seemed fine? Go figure. For me, it is CCCS! Variety recognition, Consistency, SAFE SOFT AND HARD HOLDERS, and most importantly to me....Accountable and approachable to/by the collector. NOT the Dealers and Charletons as ICCS is.
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Pillar of the Community
1844 Posts |
I agree 100% with coins.... I have spoken to Louis on many occasions. Sometimes for over an hr on the phone.He stands by everything he does..
Back to ICCS for a second.... In the past I have sent him tons of coins in my earlier days . But after awhile things got weird..Bad grades of top coins ect...
So I decided to experiment.. Sent him a coin graded by him but removed from slab..It was MS 63 ..It came back as AU? re sent it again..This time Ef45 , again au55 .... ect ..ect.. 6 times 6 diffrent grades.... I called him on this and was basically told if I wasnt happy to go elsewhere.......Sent the same coin to CCCS in his beginning got MS62... so it stayed and I never returned to ICCS nor will I ever..... On another point , Mr.ICCS claims to be able to grade a coin in less than 1 minute , because he is that good...? SURE I'm no pro but I would think 1 minute is ridiculous... And people wonder why the grading there is off more often than not......
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1472 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
since this is the grading forum, I assume you want to discuss the grade, and I have to say the pictures aren't clear enough to comment :P
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1472 Posts |
Since it is a discussion about graders I thought we might discuss how this coin ended up certified when it could not have a upset core without some help after leaving the mint. You don't have to see the photo to discuss that. Sorry, I should have explained.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
Zonad can you explain why this can't be mint error? My understanding of the alignment process is that it's not perfect but I'm not an expert for sure and wouldn't mind packing away another tidbit I didn't know.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
DBM's quote: Quote:
.My experience is that of about 80 cccs graded 25 cent coins two(both Edwards)are not graded properly,of about 240 ICCS coins 11 missed the mark(1 Edward,4 GeoV,and 6 GeoVI) question is here: who's Mark? ist it your mark or someone elses? Just curious, as your reply raises the following question: WHAT criteria do TPG'S base their grading practices on? |
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Replies: 62 / Views: 16,303 |
Posted 04/16/2010 10:41 am
