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Grading And Cleaning Questions - 1880 S Morgan

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Brent Williams's Avatar
United States
91 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2010  11:58 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Brent Williams to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have collected about 20 Morgans, none in slabs, and this one to me has the best eye appeal. Under 10x power I see what I would think are fine scratches. Not knowing much about the production of these coins nor am I truly experienced with coins that have been cleaned, I could use any input anyone has to say.

The reason I am asking if it has been cleaned is it has a nice PL pop to it. Am hopping it is PL because of the strike.

I do have grading books but want to see what you guys might grade it at.

Love this site - I am not an expert, I collect because I love to but now want to learn more. If you give a grade to this coin, could you please describe why you grade it there, especially if you think it should be graded lower than most. I want to see if I have missed anything while looking at this coin.

I think shes a beauty and a keeper.
Hope these pictures are OK



Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Peace
Brent
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SeatedNut's Avatar
United States
2797 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2010  12:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeatedNut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Brent ... yeah these big, chunky silver disks are easy to love.

I think your lady has had a wipe. Some well-intentioned person attempted to improve her appearance by rubbing with a soft cloth. To the layman it makes the coin shine better, but the serious collector will see those hairlines as you did. I fear the best she will do is AU. Only UNC coins get a PL/DMPL designation.

But on the bright side ... 80-S is a fairly common date and not much is lost dollar-wise. She's still an attractive piece and if you are pleased with her, that coin would not detract from a collection and all is well in the world.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2010  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had a great post almost typed up for this thread, and then the power went out. So, I'm posting from my cellphone to tell you that you'll have to wait until tonight for it.
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SeatedNut's Avatar
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 Posted 04/28/2010  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeatedNut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2010  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a very pretty coin. Detail wise it would grade MS-64 with a shot at MS-65, but it has been wiped which is evident by the hairline marks on the surface of the coin.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2010  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Morgan dollar dies were frequently polished during use - sometimes a clash occurred, or a crack developed, and the die would be taken out of service for the offending area to be polished away. That's why there are so many VAM's which involve "lessened" details - detached leaves, overpolished wings, etc. It's inevitable when you start using abrasives on a die.

It's been my experience that, by and large, die polishing is almost always done in a North-South direction. Conversely, people who brush coins tend to do so in an East-West direction, or diagonally. Brushing is a deliberate activity - you do it with a will, so to speak - and regardless of the actual direction the hairlines point, they all tend to point in the same direction. Rarely is that up-and-down. Furthermore, almost all brushing is "complete;" the fewer the actual hairlines visible, and the more differing directions, the more one must consider a non-deliberate action having caused them.

Die polishing lines tend to be heaviest at the denticles and the edges of the devices. You'll understand that a die is negative - the devices are lower than the fields - and that dropoff causes an unconscious increase in pressure on the part of the Mint employee doing the polishing.

Brushing, on the other hand, is heaviest in the fields and tends to be light at the edge of the devices, which protect the lower field next to them. Of course, if the hairlines extend onto the devices themselves it's pretty clear what happened regardless of what direction they face.

You'll find die polishing in many cases to be easier to see than brushing. Hairlines are sometimes only visible when your eyes or the light are at right angles to the direction, and soft incandescent lighting tends to obscure them.

So. Brushing (even this bad, it's not always visible on this coin):

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Die polishing:

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

That's an 1880-S, by the way. The reverse die wasn't polished.

I don't see enough evidence in the pictures provided for this coin to support either possibility. I see a few lines in the obverse fields towards 8:00, and what may be additional lines south and west of the M in UNUM. Not enough, to me, to decide, which is why I'm trying to fill Brent with enough knowledge to make the decision himself.

Moreover, the lighting plays directly on the cheek, washing out the most important determinant of grade on a Morgan. There's enough chatter in the fields for me to see the coin is obverse-limited - when I grade a Morgan, I decide which face is worse and grade just that as long as the strike on the "good" face is decent - and with the cheek obscured there's not enough data for a grade. I don't think I'd go as far as 65, even with a pristine cheek. The field in front of the nose is another prime territory, and there's a lot of chatter there.
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Brent Williams's Avatar
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 Posted 04/29/2010  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brent Williams to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SuperDave - Very much appreciated, glad your power is back on but sorry you had to write this twice, Thanks a ton for that info. I think I have some better pictures here, notice the N to S scratches on the rev. A question I have not seen nor asked before is if a coin say with MS64 detail but has been cleaned - does that drop it down to an AU grade.

No mater what I will keep her, (until I can find a better example) to the naked eye she looks so hot that she is the first coin friends and family go to when I display them.

I am still not sure if it is cleaned or not - hopefully these new pictures will give you experts out there a better look at it.

Thanks to all
Peace
Brent



Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan

Grading-And-Cleaning-Questions----1880-S-Morgan
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/29/2010  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm going to leave it to you to do the closer inspection - look for any hairlines on the devices, in direct sunlight which is most likely to reveal them. What I'm seeing in your second set of pics is an obverse-limited, MS63 Morgan with heavy die polishing on both obverse and reverse. I think the diagonal scratches around the chin are incidental and not deliberate.


Quote:
A question I have not seen nor asked before is if a coin say with MS64 detail but has been cleaned - does that drop it down to an AU grade.


That becomes just a question of verbiage. The TPG's (those which provide Details grades) will usually call such a coin "Cleaned/scratched/whatever" with "Unc Details" and not assign a Net grade. That's how I prefer to see it done. Trying to assign a strict grade - thereby assigning an implied value - to a damaged coin is a slippery slope. The value of a damaged coin varies by the degree of damage and the popularity/rarity of an undamaged version of the same. A damaged 1893-S Morgan would be worth a much higher percentage of the undamaged price than a damaged 1880-S.
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