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 Replies: 14 / Views: 2,032 |
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Valued Member
United States
76 Posts |
I thought I would relate my experiences in trying to purchase a certain classic coin from two separate MAJOR dealers. The specific coin and the names of the dealers are not important for the purpose of this posting which is more of a general commentary on the games some people play. Suffice it to say, we are talking about a rare and expensive classic coin of the early 19th century and the dealers would be immediately recognizable to 99% of the board.
With the availability of the Heritage galleries website, collectors can often track where a coin of notoriety might have appeared in auction as well as blown up images of the coin, obverse and reverse, as well as the holder and cert number. In the case of the first dealer I was able to establish that this coin which had sold at a Heritage auction in the past year or so in an NCS holder that had listed damage/improperly cleaned was now being offered raw for about $1300 more than its auction sale price and with no details mentioned. When this was pointed out to the dealer along with copies of the sale and image from Heritage, no response was forthcoming and before I had this information I had asked where the dealer had obtained the coin, and again, the answer was "I don't know."
In the second instance, a coin was being offered off of a website. The website showed large blow up pictures of the coin. The holder, which was a PCGS "genuine" holder, was not shown----initially. Again, it was easy to track this coin to a Heritage sale in 2008. At that time the coin sold in a "Genuine.GN" which was the holder used for a couple of months in 2008 just before the defect codes were added to the label. The images of the coin in Heritage and on the dealers website were superimposable for everything including all blemishes. The problem was that now the coin was residing in an update PCGS holder with the .98 code and the genuine not gradeable reverse. Again, the dealers first response that they were not sure that this was the same coin---even though the pictures showed it unquestionably was. Then when I asked for some information as to the provenance of the coin or what they knew about how or why it was that this coin jumped from a "Genuine.GN" coin to a Genuine.98 holder with the same company confidentiality was pleaded. Actually, I'm not really interested in names of the prior owners, but I am interested in why someone would crack a rare coin (we are talking about less than 40 graded specimens by PCGS and NGC combined) out of a genuine holder thinking that it would pass to a graded specimen with the same company again. Certainly it would be expected that images of a coin of this rarity would be kept on file at the third party grader and they would know if they saw it again. And this is without the SECURE system that virtually guarantees it. Now it is in what I would consider a less attractive holder. The dealer when asked these questions did not provide an answer but waxed philosophically: "a coin is a coin is a coin." Again, I am not interested in bashing either of these dealers with a behaviour that I consider very common, if unfortunate. If the first dealer had come forth I would have kept the coin. I'm still interested in dealing with the second dealer, providing some information is given.
I accept the possibility that due to the scarceness of this issue, I might have to satisfy myself with an attractive "genuine" coin to fill the spot in the otherwise completed series. In this day and age however of internet archives, Heritage galleries, etc, why can't more dealers be upfront with what they truly know about the coin. I think collectors would appreciate it. I know that I, for one, would.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The subjective nature of TPG grading comes into play here. I don't necessarily agree with the deceptive acts you relate, of course, but it's easy to believe that an experienced dealer could disagree with a TPG opinion. It's equally easy to believe that he could be right and the TPG wrong. The basis of any strong argument against the dealer's actions is that TPG opinions are infallible, and that dog don't hunt. To some dealers, a PCGS opinion (especially when it disagrees with theirs) carries little more weight than one from SGS, and deserves that much mention in the selling process. The trouble is, too many collectors place too much faith in TPG opinions over their own knowledge (or that of any given dealer). Me, I'd believe Doug Winter or Rick Snow or Chuck Daughtrey in their areas of specialty over any TPG opinion, every time. There are a few pure dealers on that list, as well. If Bill Rosenblum or Mark Feld or James Garcia (for instance) tell me a coin hasn't been cleaned, then it hasn't been cleaned regardless of what PCGS thinks. |
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Valued Member
 United States
76 Posts |
SuperDave: the problem, in my opinion, is my perception of the reluctance of a grading service, and here I am not just talking about coins, but stamps as well, to re-examine a specimen without bias, when that item has previously been examined by the same service. When it comes to crossing services, here I think there is a little bit of service competition where the assumption is made not that the original expertizer was right but that he was wrong and we are going to show you why. You see this type of attitude in all walks of life-----the other guy was wrong, or did a bad job, etc., etc. The sobering part of life, is that all too often, that assumption proves to be correct. If I was going to crack a coin of the rarity I was speaking about, out of a holder, I believe I would be submitting it to the competitors service in the hopes that a fresh look even to prove the other service wrong might carry the day.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
If I was going to crack a coin of the rarity I was speaking about, out of a holder, I believe I would be submitting it to the competitors service in the hopes that a fresh look even to prove the other service wrong might carry the day. I'm not sure it would really matter, depending on the coin. Given a pre-Secure Plus coin, one might reasonably expect they wouldn't recognize a cracked coin as one they'd already seen. On the level you discuss (40-ish known in slabs) the chances diminish, though. I don't know - for a coin of that stature, do they hand them all to one specific grader, or not? |
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
Quote:
I thought I would relate my experiences in trying to purchase a certain classic coin from two separate MAJOR dealers. The specific coin and the names of the dealers are not important for the purpose of this posting which is more of a general commentary on the games some people play. Suffice it to say, we are talking about a rare and expensive classic coin of the early 19th century and the dealers would be immediately recognizable to 99% of the board.
With the availability of the Heritage galleries website, collectors can often track where a coin of notoriety might have appeared in auction as well as blown up images of the coin, obverse and reverse, as well as the holder and cert number. In the case of the first dealer I was able to establish that this coin which had sold at a Heritage auction in the past year or so in an NCS holder that had listed damage/improperly cleaned was now being offered raw for about $1300 more than its auction sale price and with no details mentioned. When this was pointed out to the dealer along with copies of the sale and image from Heritage, no response was forthcoming and before I had this information I had asked where the dealer had obtained the coin, and again, the answer was "I don't know."
In the second instance, a coin was being offered off of a website. The website showed large blow up pictures of the coin. The holder, which was a PCGS "genuine" holder, was not shown----initially. Again, it was easy to track this coin to a Heritage sale in 2008. At that time the coin sold in a "Genuine.GN" which was the holder used for a couple of months in 2008 just before the defect codes were added to the label. The images of the coin in Heritage and on the dealers website were superimposable for everything including all blemishes. The problem was that now the coin was residing in an update PCGS holder with the .98 code and the genuine not gradeable reverse. Again, the dealers first response that they were not sure that this was the same coin---even though the pictures showed it unquestionably was. Then when I asked for some information as to the provenance of the coin or what they knew about how or why it was that this coin jumped from a "Genuine.GN" coin to a Genuine.98 holder with the same company confidentiality was pleaded. Actually, I'm not really interested in names of the prior owners, but I am interested in why someone would crack a rare coin (we are talking about less than 40 graded specimens by PCGS and NGC combined) out of a genuine holder thinking that it would pass to a graded specimen with the same company again. Certainly it would be expected that images of a coin of this rarity would be kept on file at the third party grader and they would know if they saw it again. And this is without the SECURE system that virtually guarantees it. Now it is in what I would consider a less attractive holder. The dealer when asked these questions did not provide an answer but waxed philosophically: "a coin is a coin is a coin." Again, I am not interested in bashing either of these dealers with a behaviour that I consider very common, if unfortunate. If the first dealer had come forth I would have kept the coin. I'm still interested in dealing with the second dealer, providing some information is given. I accept the possibility that due to the scarceness of this issue, I might have to satisfy myself with an attractive "genuine" coin to fill the spot in the otherwise completed series. In this day and age however of internet archives, Heritage galleries, etc, why can't more dealers be upfront with what they truly know about the coin. I think collectors would appreciate it. I know that I, for one, would. I completely agree that this is flat out deceptive. If a dealer cracks out a problem coin to sell raw; imo he should list the problems that the TPG saw on the coin. If he disagrees, that is fine, he can state that he disagrees; but he should still list the TPG opinion. It's not that TPGs are infallible, but the fact of the matter is that the dealer is ALWAYS going to be biased if he is the one selling the coin. Also, it is easy to hide problems when one is bidding purely on pictures. These problems were not missed when the TPG looked at it in hand, so the TPG is better at making an evaluation that a potential buyer is based on photos. Just imho. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4085 Posts |
In instance #1, somebody cracked the problem coin. You don't know if it was that dealer or not. So, "I don't know" may or may not be truthful. In instance #2, it sounds like the "crackout" game. Crack a coin out of it's slab and resubmit it hoping for a higher grade (or a grade vs. a genuine). Higher grade = higher $$$, plain and simple. Let's face it - there are problem coins in problem free slabs sometimes and there are problem free coins in genuine slabs sometimes. TPG's are run by humans, and humans are subject to mistakes or differences in subjective judgement. Add money into the mix and there's a high motivation for games and deception. It's sad to say you have to be suspicious of other's motives. You did the research to protect yourself as everyone should really do. Unfortunately, not everyone has the skill to level the playing field. Best regards, Ken |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3283 Posts |
Coin collecting is an interesting hobby because obviously there can be a great deal of money involved. Many in this hobby are purely businessmen and are only in it for profit. Being a passionate hobbyist it pains me to see people who disrespect coins and only treat them as a commodity, but people are in the game for different reasons. I'm sure the "coin businessmen" think of me as a fool. My point is; what you are experiencing here should not surprise you in the least, although certainly appropriate for you to vent. Best of luck with your purchase, at least your staying ahead of the game through your research.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
968 Posts |
I can understand the responses or lack thereof are frustrating. But I don't understand what the issue really is here. I don't see where the dealers are being deceptive since in neither case did it end up in a slab indicating it was better than it was when it was sold on Heritage. And even if it was, why assume the second grading attempt was incorrect. Maybe the first one was! If you know the coin is real and you are aware of any problems or issues with the coin, who cares if they give you the provenance or not? I would think that only matters for the super high end coins like a 1913 V nickel or a 1933 Double Eagle where who owned it can affect the value. I understand the coins you are dealing with are rare, but it doesn't sound like you are talking about one of these ultra-rarities. Edited by Saruma
05/07/2010 2:53 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
I think I misread the second "instance". I was under the impression that the dealer was hiding the fact that the coin was in a problem holder in both cases either because it was removed from the problem holder, or because the holder itself was not shown in the pictures. What bothers me is when sellers purchase a coin in a problem holder, remove it from the holder, and sell it as problem free for a significant profit. It is true that it is possible that the seller did not know the history of the coin and that it used to be in a problem holder. However, if it is an ebay purchase/resale; it is much easier to track and prove that the dealer bought and resold the same coin. In the case of the second "instance", I don't see any issue with a coin in an old "genuine" holder being resubmitted and placed in a newer "genuine" holder; as long as the problem identified(or code) is made clear to the buyer. |
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Valued Member
United States
161 Posts |
With respect to the first seller: they may have purchased the coin after it had been removed from the holder, and assumed it was a "no problem" coin.
Regarding the second seller, it would not be unusual for an expensive coin to be re-sumbitted multiple times in search of a higher grade, or something better than "genuine." That is how the game is played.
After reading reports like this many times, I have concluded that ultimately the responsibility lies with the buyer, either to inspect expensive coins themselves with a full return privilege, or to rely on a seller of impeccable integrity to assist in the decision to buy. Such sellers do exist.
The Secure Plus pathway will offer some additional assurance to those purchasing high-end coins, but this service is in its infancy now.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
the problem, in my opinion, is my perception of the reluctance of a grading service, and here I am not just talking about coins, but stamps as well, to re-examine a specimen without bias, when that item has previously been examined by the same service. How biased are they? There have been many many cases of a service bodybagging a coin only to have it graded as a no problem piece when it was resubmitted. And ther have been coins resubmitted multiple times going back and forth between slabs and bodybags with grades jumping all over the place. Quote:If a dealer cracks out a problem coin to sell raw; imo he should list the problems that the TPG saw on the coin. If he disagrees, that is fine, he can state that he disagrees; but he should still list the TPG opinion. Why? It's just an opinion. Should he also list the opinion of every other dealer or collector that has owned the coin? What about the opinions of all the people that have looked at it and passed? When it comes to buying a coin there is only ONE opinion that matters, and that is the opinion of the guy shelling out the money to buy it. The TPG's can knock themselves out over a coin talking about ow great it is. If I don't like it it doesn't matter how much they did. And I have seen many a bodybag piece that I dearly love. Quote:
If you know the coin is real and you are aware of any problems or issues with the coin, who cares if they give you the provenance or not? Because some of us DO care about provenance. We like being able to trace our coins back through the hands of the collectors that came before us. It's like doing a genealogy. Oddly enough I enjoy the provenance of my coins, but I don't give a hoot about my own genealogy. I know it back three or fou generations but before that, who cares. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
Quote:Why? It's just an opinion. Should he also list the opinion of every other dealer or collector that has owned the coin? What about the opinions of all the people that have looked at it and passed? When it comes to buying a coin there is only ONE opinion that matters, and that is the opinion of the guy shelling out the money to buy it. The TPG's can knock themselves out over a coin talking about ow great it is. If I don't like it it doesn't matter how much they did. And I have seen many a bodybag piece that I dearly love. I guess I just disagree with the majority on this. Our TPGs infallible? Of course not. Sure they make mistakes. But on average, there opinions are MUCH more consistent compared to the average dealer. IMHO This is why PCGS and NGC coins sell for much more than basement slabbed dealer coins. Sure the TPG opinion is an opinion, but it is an expert unbiased opinion(in most cases). Of course, we should buy the coin and not the holder. There is no replacement for knowing the coins you are buying. The problem imo is that there are so many advanced forms of deceptive counterfeiting and doctoring out there today, it is near impossible to know everything in regards of how to distinguish it. TPGs don't completely eliminate the risk, but they make it much less likely to get taken. It bothers me when a dealer purchases a coin in a problem slab, removes it, then sells it for thousands more as problem free with no mention of the ex-TPG opinion. Sure he can disagree with their opinion, but I think it should be mentioned so that the buyer is aware of the TPG opinion. IMO, though this happens all the time, it isn't ethical. As stated before, the ultimate responsibility is that of the buyer, but that doesn't mean that what the seller did was ok. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
870 Posts |
Quote:
Should he also list the opinion of every other dealer or collector that has owned the coin? I'm going to back Johnny up on this - I would LOVE to have that kind of history for every coin I own! I know coins are much less valuable on the whole, but from my experience with historic cars, provenance and an ownership trail is phenomenally important - especially to the certification bodies. So if you're going to treat something with value, my feeling is you should disclose every bit of information possible. A coin that is worth some money today will be worth MORE money ten or a hundred years from now. So if you have an ownership trail now, just because the current owner doesn't think it's significant doesn't mean it won't be some time from now. If these are all pieces of history then we should treat them as such, and the HISTORY of the coin is phenomenally important if it is a PIECE of history. =) These are not just valuable possessions - they carry with them a story. I've read here a few times, so much so it's cliche - "if this coin could talk" - as curators of these pieces of history - well, I see it as my DUTY to tell as much of the story as I can, to find as much ownership trail and if needed, opinion, as possible. As we've seen with the 59 Wheat penny, controversy creates value and interest. So if somebody in the coin's past thinks it's a fake but you don't, which is why you bought it, it doesn't hurt to say so unless you're not strong enough in your feeling. And even then, it's good for buyers to be informed. |
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Moderator
United States
188347 Posts |
It is important to note that I have never bought a slabbed coin. Not that I am against buying a slabbed coin. It has just not happened yet. I think I come down on Johnny's side here somewhat. If the TPGs make mistakes, then why should the dealer hide it by removing the evidence (the slab)? If a dealer disagrees with the opinion, then they should leave it in the slab and let both opinions be known. Surely if his or her opinion is one of merit, there would be no need to censor the opposition. A dealer should have no problem making a statement against a TPG's opinion when asking for the higher price. If that dealer has the customer base commensurate with his or her expertise, then there will be one that will buy the coin based on that dealer's opinion and not what is printed on the slab; with the added buyer benefit of there being two parties that certify the coin genuine. (For the record, I do not see any evidence that proves these unnamed dealers made a deliberate attempt to be deceptive. I simply believe that there are more ignorant than unethical people in the world.) |
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
I think there really is a difference. I'll post my full opinion later as I do not have time, but so many people abuse the idea that TPG's are fallible as a rationale for cracking problem coins and selling them as problem free, mostly to make money off suckers. Then, I suppose there are a few reputable dealers that honestly are experienced and do so because the TPG legitimately messed up. But I'd wager that most who do it, typically the ones that crack many coins shamelessly and resell them are just frauds (like this guy I had an experience with, SuperDave probably remembers). |
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Replies: 14 / Views: 2,032 |
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Posted 05/07/2010 10:31 am
