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 Replies: 6 / Views: 3,711 |
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New Member
Philippines
6 Posts |
Hi! I need some info. I'd always assumed Krause Publishing had physical basis to list proper colonial pesos (portraits, or bustos of Fernando VII, from Potosí and Lima mints, or KM#84-Bolívia & KM#117-Perú) among host coins bearing "MANILA 1828" and "MANILA 1830" counterstamps. Are there actual specimens, or is Krause just playing safe,
by assuming the same types bearing "F.7.o" countermarks
would also possibly carry the "MANILA" counterstamp? I'm not exactly a novice when it comes to Philippine coins under Spanish rule, and I can't recall actually seeing, or reading account of, a colonial portrait-type peso bearing any of the "MANILA" stamps. I'm hoping someone here HAS, and is willing to share info. Thanks for any leads you can provide.  h. |
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
I can't recall actually seeing, or
reading account of, a colonial portrait-type peso bearing
any of the "MANILA" stamps I think, since portrait-type coins does not bear any libertarian legends as the common Peruana and other South American coins by which the main object of counterstamping is to obliterate those legends...they felt it to be insignificant in erasing the portrait. Quote:
Are there actual specimens, or is Krause just playing safe,
by assuming the same types bearing "F.7.o" countermarks
would also possibly carry the "MANILA" counterstamp? This question is a nice one, I only heard and seen thru pictures of a Manila counterstamp with a Y.II. countermark. Was it because, King Ferdinand VII was also the one who initiated the Manila counterstamping thus an F.7.o mark would just make a redundancy in the process?...but if this is true, How come there exist an F.7.o countermark on an 1816 Ferdin VII mexico mint portrait 8 reales  Well things are getting more complicated as I try to expand my 2cent opinion... I might as well leave it to others who may have a lot of knowledge in counterstamps, and just stay on the sidelight.  |
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New Member
 Philippines
6 Posts |
Well, that's just the point I'm making :)
Bust-type colonial silver WASN'T within the ambit of the Oficina de Resello's charter.
Strictly "insurgent" silver from the former Spanish American territories was to be
overstruck with the "MANILA" resello. I've never heard of a proper colonial piece
being given the "MANILA" mark, and there was neither legal basis nor benefit to the
consumer holding such coins (already legal currency), to have them validated thus,
but Krause lists them as host coins.
The F.7.o resello was another matter. One DOES see it on proper colonials, because
part of the F.7.o's raison d'etre was to validate (rapidly as possible) the flood
of "rice" silver coming from China (1829-1838) that was chopmarked all to heck, and
required some sort of validation. If it came from China, it was old colonial coin,
but it had to be validated. At THAT point, since the Oficina was charging a fee for
it, they were more than happy to countermark old colonial silver from the Americas
as well.
That's why you will see Ferdin VII's with the F.7.o, although usually with slight
chopmarking as well (anything more than "slight", and it was condemned to melt)or
else with some sort of piercing.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
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but Krause lists them as host coins It might be the usual mistake  one thing sad though, I have encountered a slabbed carolus IIII with a fake F.7.o countermark that surfaced out in a prestigious auction last February of this year. Was it because the third party coin grading company was just affirming the authenticity of the host coin or they themselves were not that familiar with authentic resellos? |
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New Member
Philippines
6 Posts |
If you you mean PCGS and its ilk...
Yes, they MIGHT know to tell a genuine busto host coin from a counterfeit,
but I imagine they wouldn't know a fake Philippine resello if it poked them
in the eye. The "MANILA 1828" resellos are tricky enough, with all the
recutting and relieving of the dies... but the F.7.o and Y.II. die species
(a series of contractors supplied their own dies from scratch, rather than
source them off a master that the Tesoreria COULD have had made) are just
a whole other world of hurt... lol.
It should be possible to correlate Oropilla's partial list of "F.7.o" and
"Y.II" contractors, with Gilboy's schedule of die varieties, but one has
to have a sizable database of actual resello specimen images, preferrably
with emphasis on known specimens from before the flood of fakeries of 1970
to 1978, up to the present day.
Sadly, the ones with sufficient eyeball-knowledge are often the ones
who commercially profit from consumer ignorance. These guys would spot
the newer fake resellos almost instantly. Many of them have already
passed away, and soon there will be no one left with enough experience
to pass on the knowledge. Meanwhile the fakes get better and better.
h.
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
Sadly, the ones with sufficient eyeball-knowledge are often the ones who commercially profit from consumer ignorance. These guys would spot the newer fake resellos almost instantly. Many of them have already passed away, and soon there will be no one left with enough experience to pass on the knowledge. Meanwhile the fakes get better and better.
That is the sad part among us... Quote:
It should be possible to correlate Oropilla's partial list of "F.7.o" and "Y.II" One thing that has hope for an update reference about Philippine Counterstamped coins is if and when the book of Dr. Oropilla about forgeries will be made available in the market, I hope the soonest time possible...  You are right in saying ".... the fakes get better and better". As the books about these counterfeits will continue to spread-out, well it is only then maybe that we are able to control fakeones. But the thing is, will this be just a dream? |
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Valued Member
Philippines
80 Posts |
Nothing to add to your very informative discussion here. I'm not yet into C/S and C/M, but I just got hold of the Dr Oropilla's book. Awesome historical record he consolidated there. It seemed that I'm being sweeped into the technicalities of the hobby. :) Good thing? I bet it will be.
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Replies: 6 / Views: 3,711 |
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Posted 06/27/2010 10:23 am
