Authentic Ebay 8R Pillars? - MO 1771 / Lma 1770

fireandice556 Interesting post and a more interesting question posed.

First, comments based on pictures only are limited to what we can see and in this case that is not much. I would want to know the weights of each and what the edges look like. I would also like larger pictures of the bottom 4 and definitely the OTHER side too.

The 1771 from Mexico City is the least likely of the 5 coins to gain my confidence from the picture alone. The surfaces are clearly not original but I can not tell if that is because the coin was salvaged or because it is a transfer forgery. There are a couple odd looking areas on the coin itself. (1) There is a raised line segment to the right side of the Pillar on the left of the Dos Mundos. (2) There is a second raised "double" line segment which appears within the Crown on the left side opening. (3) The surface texture shows no corrosion in the smooth field above the crown but significant roughness in and around all of the letters. Corrosion is usually more uniform than that in relation to WHAT is effected. (4) There is a "flat spot" in the dentils above the UM in UNUM. I would love to see the segment of the rim EXACTLY opposite that area. If the dentils are missing on the other side of the coin that is a good sign - if they are not missing that would be very BAD. (5) The appearance of the world globes is a bit odd. In my experience both wear at similar rates. That is because the globe to the right is not actually beneath the globe to the left - they merely appear so. I have seen a few coins with ONE globe worn but not too many especially this late in the series.

So in the case of the 1771 - I would want to know much more. I would also have to trust the seller (high feedback etc.) and I would want to trust the origin of the coin. This looks to me like an oriental type - even if it is real many of those salvaged coins are really worthless or very low value. It is like coins from the El Cazador - too many salvaged coins is a drag on the market.

The second case - 4 identical coins from one seller does lead to a couple questions, but not necessarily a condemnation. I know many dealers who buy collections and in the process come up with duplicates. (1) The first question is were they all posted together with a start price of say $0.99. That is a red flag but if they are posted separately for significantly DIFFERENT values, I would be far more comfortable. That is because they are NOT worth the same amounts. Many forgers start all their material at one price $69 or $99 for example without respect to value. Rarely do they bother to asses what a fair start bid is. The one on the lower left has graffiti and should be worth as much as $100 less than the best one. Remember this is a COMMON date coin and prices should be reasonable - there are no significant varieties for 1770 except the one with no dots over the mint mark. (2) The second issue is are they actually IDENTICAL? In this case, the answer clearly is NO. The dents and dings are not in one pattern - the coins are not similarly centered and the details of the engraving/punching of the dies VARIES. So a forger would have to have 4 die pairs - not too normal (but possible). (3) I am assuming that these are the largest pictures available. I would ask for bigger ones. (4) The 4 coins look alright but the one at the upper left was harshly cleaned - likely with an acid - the color is terrible. The bottom left has graffiti as noted above. The coin at the upper right has a significant weakness at 2 o'clock that needs examination and the opposite side should also lack detail. The coin to the right side at the bottom may have been mounted at the top - the damage is clearly post strike.

So of the group of 4 I see the top right as BEST (most well preserved) but all have some issues. I would be very cautious once again about the seller - where is he located and what is his reputation. Your only guarantee is that the seller will still be around for a refund if you don't like the material. So check refund policies and avoid as-is sales until you are comfortable spotting fakes.

Have you located Gilboy's book yet. I wouldn't spend a cent on a Dos Mundos without having read that book.

Hello Fireandice556
I would like a chance to weigh in on your post. First off my usual pre comment disclaimer, "I no longer buy 8 reales on ebay unless I know the seller" so bear that in mind as I give my humble opinion. I also do not possess the technical knowledge of Swamperbob (I am one of his most ardent students) but I own a hundred+ Pillars and have seen many more than I own.
On the 1771 Mo, pass on the coin regardless of real or fake (I believe it is a fake but moot point). That is a very common date/assayer for the Mo series of pillars and there is no reason to settle for a very poor eye appeal coin. I believe it is fake because the coin "looks wrong to me" (how is that for scientific?), it doesn't look salvaged at all, I have multiple salvaged coins both sea and land and they just don't look like that. Salvage coins have corrosion sites (eaten into the surface) and often have hard damage like dings and scrapes but being buried or sunk doesn't give a coin a mushy look and with the high points on the coin the "plus ultra" on the pillars, why are they so sharp and the globes "worn" down to almost no detail?
As for the 4 Limas, they all actually look real to me but they are problem coins and I would avoid them, the 1770 dot left is a common date and easily found in xf condition. The top left coin looks "stripped" as Bob pointed out, probably a harse chemical cleaning. That coin would look nice after about a year on a window ledge in Mexico City (worst air quality in the New World) after it re-tones but why take a chance, it also might streak and spot when it retones, makes you wonder why it was stripped in the first place. The bottom left coin has scratches and damage, pass on it. The bottom on the right has poor surfaces and the top right has planchet flaws on the obverse. By the way, photos with the obverse also are posted in the ebay listings, you have to read down into the text to see them and this seller always has photos and will provide more if asked. For the record, the obverse of a coin is the side that identifies the King and country, the date side is the reverse in the case of pillar dollars.

The identification of the king along with his portrait on the "bust side" makes that the obverse on the bust series. The pillar and globe side of a pillar dollar identifies neither the king nor the country.
Gilboy clearly states the obverse/reverse issue on page "x" of the foreword in his book. Keep looking for his book, there are 498 of them out there (assuming Swamperbob won't sell his and neither will I).

Mexico 8 Reales are beautiful. The design looks great!