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Silver Counterfeit - Properly Described

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2006  9:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The following auction illustrates an example of what is an essentially perfect description of a coin that exists only as a forgery. There may be NO originals.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...290012071583

The SUD issues were Emergency Money issued in the Mexican State of Oaxaca during the revolution against Spain 1810 - 1821 (known in Mexico as the War of Independence). The SUD coins were made of copper that was very roughly hand cut into planchets which were then hammer struck with equally crude dies. The intent was to redeem the coins for silver after the War when silver became available to the Insurgents. They were issued from 1811 to 1814 and come in all the standard denominations from 1/2R to 8R. Together they form a very interesting series with numerous die varieties. There are many collectors who specialize in these varieties - a very popular series.

Counterfeiting of the series began almost immediately and the market was flooded with real and forged versions. I have never read about any actual redemption of the series.

The silver versions of the SUD issues were according to all experts cast at a "later" point in time. This "later" date is never stated explicitly. Other experts candidly state that these later silver coins made after the period of hostilities are all of "somewhat dubious origin". But counterfeit collectors, like myself, just cut to the chace and refer to them all as counterfeits. One fact is fairly clear. The silver SUDs were never produced for circulation. The Vast majority of silver SUDs on the market now can be considered to be very modern numismatic forgeries made to satisfy collector demand for the rare "silver" copies.

But even the copper coins suffered a very similar fate. They were copied not only DURING the hostilities, but almost continually since the hostilities to satisfy collector demand. Many, if not most of the varieties listed in the "expert catalogs" are actually much more recently made fantasies. I don't think anyone who is truly being honest with himself can say that any more than a very few of the die types is 100% above suspicion. So the oddest thing to consider is that what has now developed is a sub-specialty of Mexican Numismatics where the vast majority of the collectable copies are not even real and everyone involved in the specialty knows it.

I always thought that this would be the perfect series with which to begin a career of forgery. They are hammered from dies so crude that almost anyone can create a pair with simple engraving tools. The planchets are also so crude that nearly anything goes. You can call them counterfeits and still get bids far exceeding production costs from SUD specialists searching for a "new" die type.

One final factoid. The Oaxaca area was home to both Insurgent and Royalist mints at different times during the War of Independence. Both sides struck copper emergency money in Oaxaca using different designs. One of my "best" counterfeit coins of this type is a mule made with One Royalist die and One Insurgent die. Apparently the forger did not see the impossibility of what he was creating. The two sides were deadly enemies and the thought that they accidentally shared a die pair is insane.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16837 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2006  04:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To quote the seller:
Now, if you receive it and you just do not like it we will take it back, but if you buy it and some dealer says it is not real, you own it. Of coarse the dealer that will tell you it is not real will also want to buy it from you! As a fake of coarse. All a game.

You know, there's nothing like an honest vendor when it comes to declaring their return policy!

It's bizarre the "laid back" attitude some collectors have to contemporary counterfeits in some series. I like the note that Krause puts in for the early Brazilian Empire coppers:
Though usually crude and carelessly engraved, some counterfeits are of decent workmanship, and entirely undistinguishable from government issues. Brazilian collectors generally accept these contemporary counterfeits as collectable, due to their historical value.

It's like, "Counterfeit? Who cares?"
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2006  10:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap - I completely agree with the your statement that many collectors and dealers believe that there is no real difference. "It's like, "Counterfeit? Who cares?"

I actually feel that there are several different categories that are involved and most collector/dealers are just a bit lazy because they don't make the distinction or make any real attempt at identification.

There are 4 categories of Contemporary Circulating coins that were fraudulent based on metal content.

1. Underweight coins using standard alloy and dies - made in the mint
2. Coins with non standard alloy but made in the mint
3. Off metal coins using mint dies but made outside the mint
4. Off metal coins using spurrious dies


Category 1. Underweight coins using standard alloy and dies - made in the mint
Depending upon the mint and the practices employed - which unfortunately do vary by denomination and era - the first two categories can be totally "normal" issues, but at other times when intrinsic values were rigidly standardized there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. When standards were ridgid an underweight coin was a problem because it could undermined confidence in the issue. As an example - how often in the era of silver coins did the US issue an underweight coin? Not too often - they are rare and WORTH MORE. At these times of rigid standards, light coins were remelted. If they "escaped" into circulation it might be the result of intentional fraud but was more likely sloppy production control - a MINT ERROR. Coins falling into this category require a weight check, a visual inspection of the coin to eliminate tampering and a check of Specific Gravity.

Category 2. Coins with non standard alloy but made in the mint
This category is much more indicative of fraud by mint employees if it occurs during periods of rigid standardization. Some of these incidents were documented at the time, but because of the confidence issue the information was never broadcast widely to protect the integrity of the coinage. But there are several documented cases. In a few of the cases in Mexico, the workers were in fact executed. But at other times, the fraud seems to have slipped by. The identification is accomplished by weight, visual inspection and determination of SG. Personally I isolate any 8R coin that contains 10% too little silver by assay into a distinct category. But the key to this group is that the coins were made at the mint and they must match the original dies and production methods exactly. Often the edge die is the most critical to proving a coin falls into this sub-category. This category can also be referred to a "DEBASED ORIGINAL ISSUES".

Category 3. Off metal coins using mint dies but made outside the mint This category is very similar to number 2 but there is a key difference. The dies in this case were borrowed or stolen or salvaged from the scrap pile and were reused by the forgers illegally. Since they did not have access to mint eqiupment the coins usually have some slight differences. The edge is normally the biggest problem. The counterfeiters rarely got the edge dies so they edged coins anyway they could. The planchets are often more irregular than mint products and sometimes the forgers redated the die to try to hide the fraud. That makes the dies identifiable by the way the recut digits look. These coins are true counterfeits. But they are rarer than the normal issues and for a specialist collector command a premium.

Category 4. Off metal coins using spurrious dies
This is the category everyone thinks of when speaking about counterfeits.

I should point out the fact that these four categories apply to contemporary circulating couneterfeits and not to Modern Numismatic forgeries. That is a bigger subject.

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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2006  10:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Learn something new every day.

I think that it's interesting that the catalogs are picking up these coins as if they were authentic issue. Makes it tough to learn from books when the books are wrong.
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