When Chinese Forgeries Re-Sell

Wow, that's some impressive knowledge. It's also why any coin of value that I buy comes in a slab from a few select grading companies. Which leads me to ask a question. How many good counerfeits do you suppose get by? Let's face it, minting a coin really isn't cutting edge technology. Especially if you were looking to mimic something that was produced about 100 years ago. I think that the "omega" high relief double eagles showed that the perfect fake is not out of the question.

BH8006 - You ask - Is there a market for fake coins, sold
legally as counterfeit or copy coins?

The answer is both yes and no depending upon the type of counterfeit you are dealing with. Basically there are only two major categories of forged coins:

Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits
Numismatic Counterfeits

The fist type is worth far more than the second. The definition would include all counterfeits made while a coin was CURRENT that were produced to circulate at FACE VALUE. Within this definition fit several subcategories, but the basic value in this category rests in the fact that they were made contemporaneously with the originals. The most valuable within this category are the forgeries that can be attributed to a known group of forgers or which served a specific known historical purpose. The counterfeits of 8R coins made at Birmingham England during the War between Great Britain and Spain in 1796 are one such group of forgeries. Any of the forgeries known to have been in Circulation in the US before 1845 as listed in Riddell's "Monograph" are also of interest. The 2R coins listed in the ANA book on Colonial Counterfeits and counterfeits made from ORIGINAL dies stolen from the mint also command a premium. All contemporary forgeries are collectable but not all of them are legal.

The second category are worth far less in general because they were made to defraud numismatists. While some of them sell at rather high prices as space fillers - these are really of very minimal value beyond intrinsic value. The more modern the forgery is the less they are normally worth. Cast copies in white metal, pewter and lead are on the lowest rung. There is some speculation in buying the work of known forgers like "Slavey of Romania" but that is more speculation that actual value. He manufactures ancient coins made exactly as the originals were. But the Chinese counterfeits flooding the market today also fall in this group.

I have a rather large collection of counterfeits that is true. I focus on the Cap and Ray Mexican series and other coins listed in Riddell that were demonetized in the US in 1857. I have over 1700 8R counterfeits dated between 1800 and 1857.

snowman - there absolutely are essentially perfect counterfeits in the market place.

I would point to the 1950 D nickel counterfeits as one of the best made and least known forgeries. They still reside in many collections undetected. The Henning 1944 nickel and its cousins (which are still circulating) were good. He was only caught because he forgot the P mint mark on the 1944.

The recent "discovery" of the forged micro O US dollars came as no surprise at all to me. I had first heard of them in the early 1970s in Boston. My source was an old time coin dealer who was very familiar with the forgery operation and knew the forger personally. He died in 1975 without divulging too many of the particulars. They manufactured very high grade US and Mexican Portrait dollars in the 1893 - 1895 time frame in full weight silver. They were used in trade because silver prices fell into the 30 cents per ounce range and a good profit margin existed if they could be passed at $1. They were slabbed as real by TPG services but many people knew better. There are other forgeries that are routinely encapsulated because they are so well made.

Mark Hoffman made several perfect copies that were slabbed or otherwise authenticated by experts - 1909 S VDB and 1914 D pennies, the Morman Territorial Gold issues and of course he is suspected of being the source of the 1959 cent with the wheat back.

This discussion of counterfeits does not include any of the "Unauthorized" coins or restrikes that are technical counterfeits but bring HUGE prices. The 1913 Liberty V nickel actually is a COUNTERFEIT. There are many others.

And of course there are the strikes made from salvaged, borrowed or stolen dies. These are distinguishable only by assay or manufacturing techniques. They are hard to separate from the mint made debased coins which many dealers and collectors simply accept as real.

One of my interests is collecting slabbed counterfeits. I have several but my best always occur in pairs - one slabbed and one raw (preferably cut) so that the forgery is obvious.

Once again, thank you for the education. I keep thinking that I'm getting better at identifying the fakes, and then you post something that looks genuine and I don't see the flaws until you point them out in your description. The 8 reales and the Morgan looked okay to me until I read the rest of your post.

One day, I hope I have even 1/10 of your knowledge.

snowman - that is in the works but not very far along. Every time I think I have a solid handle on the subject I find something new and unexpected. The advent of ebay has brought out many forgeries from attics and hiding spots so that new examples contimue to turm up. For me the hunt for the data is more interesting than publishing findings - at least so far.