Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
300,000 items to help build your collection! Specializing in Modern Numismatics Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

If Cleaning Is Taboo - Where Does This Fit?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 3,366Next Topic  
New Member
hermitlion's Avatar
Australia
10 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  07:06 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add hermitlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I understand from what I've read here and elsewhere, cleaning is taboo - so when I read the following, I was stumped.
Where/how does this advice fit in?

http://www.drakesterling.com/Custom...ng_Coins.pdf
Fred Lever's Coin CD of Australian Pre-decimal Variety Coins 1910 - 1964 and More

Can anyone put that advice into context for me?

curious,

George
Edited by hermitlion
08/24/2010 07:08 am
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  08:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaning is not "taboo". But it's like amputation - something that should only be done as a last resort, by people that (hopefully) know what they're doing rather than trying to do it yourself. Because, like amputation, cleaning a coin is irreversible. You can't clean a coin and then "dis-clean it" because it looked better before you cleaned it.

The advice given to newbies should always be, "never clean coins", because new collectors simply don't know the difference between dirt, corrosion and patina. All too often, newbies want to make their coins "look like new again" - they should be discouraged from attempting any sort of cleaning until they learn that this is an impossible goal. Cleaning is a tool of last resort, and only coins that "really need it" should be cleaned.

"Dirt", as in foreign matter adhered to the surface of a coin (eg. paint, goo from degraded plastic or literal dirt from being buried in the ground) can be removed safely and with minimal concern for the ethics of what you're doing. Soap and water, acetone or some other solvent removes dirt but doesn't damage corrosion or patina.

"Corrosion" is more commonly encountered on copper and bronze coins, though any metal apart from pure gold can suffer from it. Either treated or untreated, a corroded coin is an ugly, damaged coin. Treating it might make the coin look better, but then again might make the coin look like a closeup of the Moon. The other thing to consider is that some forms of corrosion "spread" and if left untreated in humid conditions will eventually see the whole surface of the coin crumble into dust. Fire damage also qualifies as corrosion; again, an ugly coin might be improved by removing the corrosion, but it might be made worse.

"Patina" is the thin oxide surface of the metal itself. In effect, it's a very thin layer of corrosion, but is both attractive and serves as a protection against worse forms of corrosion. Removing it is considered "cleaning" in the most negative sense of the word, and should be avoided if at all possible. A coin stripped of its patina definitely "looks cleaned" and using chemicals or adverse environmental conditions to artificially re-patinate a coin to make it look "not cleaned" again is deceptive and unethical - two wrongs don't make a right.

Coins dug up from the ground pose a particular challenge. Ancient Greek and Roman bronze coins typically come out of the ground looking like rocks, with a remnant core of uncorroded metal surrounded by a thick uneven patina surrounded in turn by corrosion byproducts and concreted soil; finding exactly where the boundaries are between dirt, corrosion, patina and bare metal for these "uncleaned ancient coins" is a skill few have the patience to master.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
southerngent's Avatar
United States
469 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add southerngent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very well stated!
Valued Member
CEOcoinshop's Avatar
United States
186 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CEOcoinshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
14th Commandment: Thou shalt Not Clean Coins!
I think it's in 2nd Leviticus.......
Ok with that said. The Mona Lisa, and the Sistine Chapel have been cleaned.
Proper restoration can be A-OK. But expert or experience work is required.
You can practice on junk coins, and you can read tips, but before anybody touches a "better" coin... please get real help.
Valued Member
Ozzie's Avatar
Cyprus
349 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozzie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would be listening to Sap if I were you.
Valued Member
Waredu's Avatar
United States
397 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2010  10:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waredu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Notice in the very first paragraph the author states "With coins that do not have value by condition..." This is the key sentence in the entire article. If the coin has no value due to its condition - nothing you do is going to make it worse. It's already worth nothing.

The author then goes on to say that anything graded higher than worthless - basically don't do anything.

I look at this the same way I do weerdsteev's Buffalo nickel restorations. If you can't see the date, it's basically not worth a thing except as a filler in a type collection (and Buffalo nickels are still cheap enough to keep that from happening). But he takes a dateless nickel and restores the date. Now, IMHO, it would nicely fill a key date hole in my album.
New Member
hermitlion's Avatar
Australia
10 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2010  04:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hermitlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Sap,

I appreciate your time and effort into answering with such detail. Thanks very much for your advice and the information about patina.

I will be looking at the coins again tonight with new understanding.
:-)

George
New Member
United States
9 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2010  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How can you tell if a coin has been cleaned?
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2010  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaning can vary from the almost undetectable to the blatantly obvious. Some of the more obvious signs of poor cleaning are:

- Wrong colour. Copper coins that are pink or orange, silver coins that are pale and flat, aluminium coins that are crumbly white; these are often signs that a chemical agent (eg. acid) or electrolysis has probably been used.
- "Shiny" coins with obvious wear. A worn coin should be an oxidized coin; worn copper should look brown, worn silver should look greyish, even gold looks duller after its been in circulation for many years. If parts of the coin are worn flat and such a coin is cleaned in an effort to "make it look new again", it simply looks wrong.
- Pitting. Cleaning can remove corrosion, but the damage from the corrosion has already been done; if the corrosion is deep it will leave behind a hole or pit where the corroded metal used to be.
- Polishing lines. Polishing and "whizzing" (using an electric wire brush to create artificial shininess) often leaves behind telltale circular patterns on the surface. True mint lustre is often radial rather than circular, creating the much-sought-after "cartwheel effect".

A skilfully deceptive coin doctor can try to "hide" these flaws, but their efforts often end up making the coin look much worse in the long run.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
wwwww's Avatar
Australia
541 Posts
 Posted 09/23/2010  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwwww to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What that article talks about is cleaning coins which don't derive their value from condition.

The general rule is, if you can, beyond any reasonable doubt determine a coin has been cleaned, and the cleaning has damaged the surfaces to the extent of a change in grade, then the coin's value will be considerably dropped depending on whether the coin derives its value from date rarity/demand vs condition rarity/demand.

The first half is more important but the techniques use here to answer that cannot be ambiguous in anyway. A natural coin can look cleaned, a cleaned coin can look natural.

E.g.
If-Cleaning-Is-Taboo---Where-Does-This-Fit?
If-Cleaning-Is-Taboo---Where-Does-This-Fit?

Semi-mirror fields, hairlines, generally cleaned appearance. This coin has never been touched up, it was simply struck from polished dies.

Or.
If-Cleaning-Is-Taboo---Where-Does-This-Fit?
If-Cleaning-Is-Taboo---Where-Does-This-Fit?

Attractively toned, full cartwheel lustre, but extremely fine hairlines on obverse.

Detecting cleaned coins involves learning particular techniques, and seeing the end results in person. I don't believe it's something that can be taught through anything other than experience.

The second point concerns the extent of cleaning. Cleaning wears away the top layer of a coin, if the top layer is already heavily worn, it stands to reason that light cleaning won't cause any relatively significant wear. On the other hand, if you clean a Gem Uncirculated coin, you'll effectively clean away practically any value it may have had.

The effect on value is best determined by the value of a coin in the grade you've worn it down to. Harshly cleaning an Unc coin will probably wear the surfaces similarly to an gVF graded coin, so when it comes to sell it, that's all you can expect. The change in value is inversely proportional to its rarity. A unique 1899-P Half Sovereign, even if it was in pristine condition to begin with, will suffer little loss of value if cleaned, on the other hand an MS68 1960 threepence will drop from a $600 coin to a 60c coin if cleaned.

For more information on cleaning, see:
http://www.numismatics.com.au/Blog/...ons_answered
  Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 3,366Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.33 seconds to rattle this change. Forums