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1986-D LC Weak Strike?

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carlcrneckiy's Avatar
United States
56 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  10:46 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add carlcrneckiy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,

I was wondering if this is a weak die strike or just wear? I thought wear but it only seems worn in the one area of the coin on the reverse.

I'm starting to look a bit more closely at coins since joining CC, so I'm probably just imagining things but would still like your opinions. Thanks again....

Carl



1986-D--LC-Weak-Strike?

1986-D--LC-Weak-Strike?
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19965 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1986-D Lincolns are usually just a tad mushy, although many well-struck examples exist, this is just wear.
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coindexter's Avatar
United States
869 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  03:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coindexter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a early die stage of a 86-D I also find them worn like that one. But yesterday I did found this one. It must have been sitting in a old 1986 pickle jar tell now. LOL

1986-D--LC-Weak-Strike?

1986-D--LC-Weak-Strike?
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A few things to point out to clear this matter...

1. Wear will not make some parts of a design nearly disappear while other parts are very strong. Wear is normally even all across the design on both sides of the coin. This coin is a very typical and common weak strike.

2. 1986 cents are known to be struck weakly enough to not fill all reverse devices - as are all 1983-1988 cents.

3. The reason the lettering is weak at the top of the reverse on many of these coins is because this area is exactly opposite the highest relief area on the obverse - the shoulder. If the strike is not absolutely complete and strong, the lettering on the reverse suffers and does not strike up completely.

4. The second 1986D cent shown is not an "early die stage" example. It is mid-die state and is struck completely - nothing more than that.

5. The term "early die stage" is not numismatically correct...there is no such thing. I will explain...

stage - used to determine progression in the use of a die by pointing out markers visible on the coins a die struck through its life. Stages are pointed out by using a letter, i.e., stage A, stage B, etc.
die state - used to point out the approximate age of (number of coins struck by) a given die. Synonym - die wear. When a die begins striking coins it is automatically in very early die state. As it strikes coins, it moves through early die state to mid die state, to late die state, then eventually to very late die state if it lasts that long.

A hypothetical example to illustrate the two different terms and why they are very different and are NOT interchangeable.

stage A - very early die state.
stage B - die clash forms. early die state.
stage C - die clash polished away. early die state.
stage D - die scratches from polishing worn away, die crack develops. mid die state.
stage E - die crack rim to rim. late die state.
stage F - die breaks leaving a Cud. late die state.

Note that each stage points out a different marker, and the die state repeats from stage to stage if necessary. Like I said, stage and state are unrelated to one another in a direct fashion. In other words, because you move from stage D to stage E does not necessarily mean you have to move from mid to late die state.



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 Posted 09/09/2010  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chuck,
How or where in your example would devise wear factor into die state, if at all. I am thinking particularly of devises next to the rim where as edges abrade they start to flow out to the rim. I have always considered this indicative of "late die state" condition. By your example, it may not be.

Thx for your comparison, it helps a lot.

JIm
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carlcrneckiy's Avatar
United States
56 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlcrneckiy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for your input. Like I stated in another post, this site and it's members are the best resource for gaining knowledge.

Carl
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Indian1's Avatar
United States
3640 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very good solid explanation by Mr. D
Jim, Die state is the wear factor. Or vice versa :)
Punch pressures may vary from time to time but the state of the die
will still show through. You can state your stage but you cannot stage your state. Unless of course you live in Mass. :)
Kind of like "You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish"
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jim1953 - If you are talking about the flow lines at the outside edges of the devices that cause them to blur into the rim, this is a direct effect of die wear, not coin wear. Just to clear that much up.

The sharpness (or lack thereof) of the outside edges of the devices and the overall presence, quantity, and heaviness of flow lines especially in the fields are what determines die state as follows:

Very Early Die State (VEDS): Sharp, clear with NO flow lines. All devices are crisp as designed.
Early Die State (EDS): Very minor feathering of the outside edges of the outermost devices begins to show. A few stray, short flow lines may be apparent in the fields.
Mid Die State (MDS): Light feathering of the outer edges of the outermost devices becomes apparent with little or no magnification, but the edges of the devices are still rather crisp. Some detailed areas are somewhat worn looking, especially in areas of sharp relief contrast. Light to moderate flow lines show in spoke-like patterns in the fields.
Late Die State (LDS): Outer edges of outermost devices are soft and blurred by chipping and flow lines toward rim. Fields are covered in flow lines. Some devices in heavier stress areas are blurred and can be difficult to separate in detailed areas.
Very Late Die State (VLDS): Outer edges of outermost devices are indistinct and blurred, and may even merge with the fields or rim. Heavy flow lines pit the entire surface of the coin. Many detailed areas are indistinct and lack minor design features. Under magnification many areas of the design may be difficult to identify due to flow lines and loss of detail.

Remember that all of the die states above note the condition of the die at the time the coin was struck. It is still VERY possible to have a coin in EACH of these die states that grades MS66 - even MS67. The only parts of grading that can be affected by die state are strike (if the design is weak - VLDS), and eye appeal (again, a weak design makes a not-so-pretty coin).

I will be covering die state extensively in my next book, due for release in November.
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 Posted 09/10/2010  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thx so much, Chuck and I will be buying it. Please let us know when it is available.
Jim
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