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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,741 |
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
I posted this same question at VAMworld, but figured it may be a good discussion topic here also. There has been some discussion about Die Classification vs. Die Pairing/stages and how VAMing has turned into (has always been) die classification, not just the identification of die pairs and stages like overtons and such. My question is this... Is the die is the die theory applicable to die classification as it IS with die pairs/stages? Before you say yes. (which I assume how most/all will/would answer) ponder this... How can the die is the die apply if it is not a specific documented die pair, but a classification of die attributes. Should it be the classification is the classification? Examples for my question Peace dollarThe 1925-S VAM-3 has a different obverse than the VAM-3A, now if it weren't for the clash marks it would just be another VAM-3 with a second obverse. Some have more than 2 or 3 different dies for a specific VAM... so how can the die is the die theory apply? Morgan The 1902-O VAM-45 series of classifications vs die pairs Yes... I have read the definition of the die is the die on the definitions page (I created the page) but I am not sure its applicable to VAMs. It is FOR SURE in the example given on the page as a single die was used to strike ALL coins for that particular coin... but VAMs are completely different... Lets get some good ol' discussion going. here is the link to the definition... http://www.vamworld.com/The+Die+is+the+Die |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
Remmy, I had just looked at your post over there LOL. I am way too new to state a meaningful comment ....But !
The die is the die seems too get a little over used to some point. Kind of like on the 1882 cc Vam-3 thought 3d all have the same die just in different "States"
The question I have always asked is what truly makes a "Die imperfection a different sub-type"? How different or what type of flaw is important? I have seen the term "naked eye" used and that makes sense. (Kind of) In many of the sub types when I compare the different one it sometimes seems too of had a moving scale. This also makes some sense as Vamming has and will continue to grow.
As far as the die is the die, if we use the term "Literally" there should be no sub types at all. As once a die pair is noted such as a Vam-1 that die pair would then be closed and any clashing, cleaning, or gouges done on that die set would be meaningless. That would note work either. That would also mean I would not have any "E" clashed vams as they would just be part of what ever pairing the dies where like a 1883 O Vam-23
Edited by twohawks
10/12/2010 3:42 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
380 Posts |
This is exactly my point... The die is the die really has no place in VAMing as VAMing is die classification and not die pairs. This hit me like a ton of bricks. WHAMMO... right on the head. I used to be one of those guys who used it all the time, because I thought we were really doing die pairs and the listings that were not pairs were accidents... this is/was a bad assumption on my part hence the bricks.  So IMO the theory has no place in VAMing with the exception of listings that notate a SINGLE die pair, and not a classification of the attributes. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
And you are comfortable with that?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I have to agree and disagree......IF ONE NEEDED A DIRECT ANSWER, there is none..But the fact is the "die is the die" principle is the basis of all error coins. BUT I MUST include, that the "DIE IS THE DIE" theory is the basis for the vamming numbering system. That I think we can all agree on....Now, we all know that there are discrepancies in this system...I believe there is the die is the die theory AND a "classification" system, which goes hand in hand..... My meaning is simple.......In the beginning there was the die theory. with no multiple listings of minor gouges and such...only the main features of the differences which are known as DIE PAIRS, were listed.... But today we have more means to study and "classify" these normal pairs BEYOND the main PUP'S (pick up points) needed to identify a VAM number. Today we have the Old and the Joining of the new....the die is the die and classification... In the OLD must be seen with the naked eye.............yet today most of the devil is in the detail.... the small points, not seen with the naked eye.. That is a fact.......that is the difference TODAY......these small points ALSO POINT TO "DIE PROGRESSIONS".......... While we wait for something new we are seeing very similar features... the die is the die theory shows us the main pick up points, and then now you have a coin with other attributes not listed,,,HMMMMM....sub categories? or Classification.... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
Gene that is a good way to put it
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Is a whale a fish? Is a bat a bird? A person can classify each as such. Whales have fins and swim like any other fish. Bats have wings and fly like any other bird. Classifications arise when the truth is unknown, but the need to generalize is felt. Different animals can be thrown into different classifications depending on who is doing the classifying and what basis they use for differentiation. The die is the die is fact, not theory. Die A is die A....Die A is never die B. Die A is classified as die B sometimes because it shares similarities with die F, just like dies C, D, and E do. This entire VAM thing is based on a classification system, or systems, (if it can even be qualified as that), of similarities, and the inabilities to distinguish certain dies from any other dies. It is further confused and limited by the musings and rules of only one person, the attempts to further complicate things by ineffectively trying to claim die state progression and determine which clashes will be recognized a clashes and which will go unmentioned. In many cases there is no answer to which die is which die and never will be, unless document research uncovers the truth, and that is highly unlikely. Truth is what everyone claims to be all about, yet complicating an already tangled ball of string is what comes of digging deeper and giving new names and labels to things that are not understood, and then throwing them into the mix as well. The B1 and B2 hubs for instance.....speaking strictly of reverse hubs, how many B hubs were there? The answer is one. Do I think that there are dies that so closely resemble other dies that differentiation is impossible? I don't think it, I fervently believe it. Many dies made from the same working hub will share the same characteristics to the point that subtle differences will be invisible. So where does that leave the die is the die? It is fact, but it will never be known, so classification is necessary, although should not be considered as either fact or truth. Edited by zeewool
10/13/2010 06:19 am
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
Lou... you relay information really well sometimes... that last post was one of them... That is EXACTLY what I am saying... (but doing a poor job of it)
The die is the die... is absolute. Where VAMing is not.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
The die is the die... is absolute. Where VAMing is not. Oh I don't know, that seemed pretty to the point to me. Usually, people do not understand what I am talking about because I have an unorthodox way of thinking. I believe that all things are relative, either directly or (for the most part) indirectly. I think in analogies, I rationalize in analogies, and unfortunately, I express myself that way too. Certain types of physicists (the dreamy types) will ponder the mysteries of the universe, never drawing conclusion beyond speculation. There is just no way of knowing some things, and no amount of research or study is going to fix that. Where do we come from? How many different obverse dies were used in making the 1921 Morgan? Is there a God? (Unsolvable mysteries of the universe). Vamming is, in itself, one of those eternal paradoxes, the search for truth amidst a sea of speculation. While the die is the die thing would be optimal, classification is the red herring. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
Do I think that there are dies that so closely resemble other dies that differentiation is impossible? I don't think it, I fervently believe it. Many dies made from the same working hub will share the same characteristics to the point that subtle differences will be invisible. So where does that leave the die is the die? It is fact, but it will never be known, so classification is necessary, although should not be considered as either fact or truth. As close to the simple truth as I've ever hear it put. Doesn't stop me from believing that the only "right" way to do it is to attempt to pair unique dies. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
getting back to town and trying to catch up with all of the. I get to read ZEE's post..... LMGOROTG.......Laughing my guts out rolling on the ground....  Let me say its great to be back among inquiring minds....... You know my friend, when we inquired a year ago of the present VAM assignments..WE WERE IN TROUBLE....there were several pwople who wanted to rewrite the vamming assignments or numbering systems, and only one thing stood in the way,,,,or should I say several TPG's in which vamming is/HAS injected themselves into the MONEY....PCGS has some 20 billion into there game, of course most of it is not for VAM's...BUT imagine if they are to assume liability for VAM's they have confirmed....and now the system changes.......where is there responsibilities now?...none do to the system numbering change? we are talking about MEGA BUCKS here...... But in REALITY....we are talking about the system of how vams are numbered.... AS I noted, The "die is the die", IS THE CORNERSTONE....of vamming but the fact is....its still early in its codeification, meaning unlike the CBH, that Morgan's have not all be researched to its fullest and as such...new VAM'S are found weekly....and as they are found....and not researched into die progressions until much later... We now have the classification unwritten/spoken theory on how to jam in these new vams based upon pimples on the buttox.... It is these thoughts of what I write tonight to address, the old with the newly applied conjecture...of NOT RE-NUMBERING THE SYSTEM.... yet even today todays classifications idea is deleting listings and renumbering them at the same time........THAT IS A FACT... but when a whale becomes a fish? or a bat becomes a president instead of a bird I have to wonder? Zee my friend....Keep on keeping on.......we bring these simple facts to those who would wonder why and actually think....  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I don't really consider vamming to be in its infancy Gene...... Far from it...... I liken it to middle age.......It began innocent and pure, as a baby, it grew through the nurturing of its father, things became complex and confusing in adolescence, and is now twisted and contorted into a midlife crisis that cries out 'why?'. This is the stage where it is realized that this is all there is, there will never be 'the die is the die', because the die cannot be recognized and distinguished in its individuality. This is the big difference between CBH and VAM......they cannot be compared for a number of reasons. The CBH dies can be counted, identified, and numbered because they were created in relatively limited quantity, they were far more poorly made than were Morgan dies. They were used until they literally fell apart....the main designs changed every few years....Overdates and reluctance to lap (polish) the dies due to clashing or other minor blemishes leaves an easy trail to die state progression. There is no need to classify CBH, (the die is the die)......because the dies can be distinguished. Vams will never reach this state of understanding, due to the relatively modern and efficient means of producing dies that lasted many, many times longer than a CBH die, in great numbers that did not require that broken dies be used beyond obvious serviceability. Dream on about the die is the die if you must, but it is merely a Utopian pipe dream when it comes to Morgans, you must live with what is known rather than what never will be. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
the unknown is yet to be known, and is based upon established principles, and the die is the die as you have affirmed, must be the basis.....the paultry pimples must lay as they lay or be classified because of there existence...in which there existence within the die must be some how explained..
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
When absolutely no 'pimples' exist....no identifying marks whatsoever....what is there to explain or distinguish? Exactly how many of these 'identical' dies existed? If one of these dies developed a chip, would that make it a different die than it was before the chip, or would that chip be used to distinguish it from the other dies that looked just like it before the chip?
Edited by zeewool
10/14/2010 01:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
This is the point... for example 1902-0 VAM 45. with 6 or 7 die pairs.. its only the smallest features which distinguish it from others.....die pairs....yet HOW are these die pairs in general...ONLY have the smallest of details to distinguish them selves as different dies? I am playing devils advocate here.........in search of the truth.... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I'm hoping that I can convey, some idea, of the differences from the die is the die theory, and what I would think of as die progression.... If you don't all know it... I have only been studying this for say a year and a half. So I don't claim to know it all, but I would like to raise the point or question here for our contemplation or thoughts... what I will speak of without writing a book is in general terms...not the process: A DIE IS MADE.. within the process there are flaws. or characteristics which can pinpoint them to a particular die....there are Obverse dies and Reverse dies.....each year "X" amount of dies were made as the predicted amount of coins were to be manufactured..and the die life, was assumed, so "X" amount of dies were produced, very much like the traditional supply and demand theories.... now we all know as we have researched, the process of making the dies has created the flaws we have come to know as VAM's... Now the thing is, in the infancy of vamming, you will notice,,AS IT IS TODAY...that only the main points, or so called pick up points are listed....NOW 30 years later and our microscopes can capture the finer details of the ORIGINAL minted VAM...small gouges and such actually tell the story of the dies life....from pristeen unblemished first born new die, to the die that's been in use and needs touching up... and the signs of the workers corrections to a die that's seen some wear..... PERHAPS if I questioned, if a whale is a fish, I might have to wonder...yet As my friend agree's it is a fish, one must only wonder what we can agree on what kind of fish it is.... SO it is with VAMing, and I claim not to be an expert. but rather than an inquiring mind that has researched to find understanding... IF I thought my fish was a blue gill and you thought a bass WE WOULD seek out some pictures to differentiate the CLASSIFICATION I"m seeing that I am writing a book I will not get the "best sellers list"{ so in the end... we are using microscopes and seeing the gouges and tooling and polishing lines that are seen and WONDER where they fit in to the die thingy....... WE are now seeing the small details not seen with the loupe from former years..they are determining today's VAM's actually in MY DEMENTED MIND we are in many cases seeing the progression of work done to the die trying to keep it close to normal acceptance or should I say DIE PROGRESSION... within this progressive state... as within the 1978P series...it makes all the difference.......I guess I have said what I meant and meant what I said, an elephant remembers 100%.......LOL. hope you all can remenber your 2nd gade books......other than that..I'm crazy.... |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,741 |
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Posted 10/12/2010 5:00 pm
