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The Eventual 'Cost' Of Rising Silver Prices

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Yass's Avatar
Australia
652 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  9:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Yass to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've been viewing a number of topics relating to roll hunting, in particular those that are specifically searching for 'silver'.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see the detrimental effects that these activities will eventually have on coin collecting?

All I have read refer to being 'skunked', below melt, above melt, et al. Do none of these coins actually hold any numismatic value?

It seems to me that all you are doing is artificially jacking up the price of your coins. What happens when the price for silver eventually falls? No-one is going to sell their silver coins for less than what they bought them for, regardless of their condition/grade. What is the silver-fed 'high' price for a 'junk' (good/fine) silver coin doing to the 'higher' (Unc/MS) grades?

If the coins have actually been melted (and I have to question that given legislation about defacing and destroying coins), haven't you inadvertently created a vacuum in the number of coins available to future collectors, and possibly made those that remain out of the price range for new collector?

I search large numbers of rolls, but I do it for the enjoyment and excitement of finding the occasional rarity or error. Ignore the fact that we don't have the plethora of silver coins that you do, but the point remains valid. Are you collecting or simply mercenary?
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carmykle's Avatar
United States
2448 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You pose an interesting question, which to properly answer, requires many pages of graphs and analysis. I'll be terse. Numismatically, your coins will only be worth what the market will bear based on their grade. (I. E. if your junk silver has readable dates and can be graded, you can sell them at that grade.) Intrinsically, the price of silver will always vary as a commodity based on a lot of factors. While Industrial silver usage is slightly up, the overall use is down. Like any other commodity, I believe silver is cyclical. Like in the 80s silver is now in high demand due to the economy; everyone wants a hedge on inflation and the possibility of a declining dollar. As many have indicated, we are slowly coming out of this recession and when we do, silver prices will fall. It may fall to the point that the Numismatic price of the coin is higher than the intrinsic value of the silver. It's happened before and I believe it'll happen again. Someone will get stuck holding a lot of expensive silver. If you have the Complete Catalogue and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace dollars, check out the graphs they offer in the first part of the book on Silver Dollar and Bullion prices. It's interesting reading. Not to mention, Google Industrial Silver Usage. They are all good reads.
Edited by carmykle
01/08/2011 10:21 pm
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Yass's Avatar
Australia
652 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Numismatically, your coins will only be worth what the market will bear based on their grade. (I. E. if your junk silver has readable dates and can be graded, you can sell them at that grade.)


Quite correct, However, a benchmark is being set. See the following example of the price of the 2007 Australian Ashes Series PNC.

http://www.australian-threepence.co...hes-pnc.html

Quote:
Initially there was much talk about this issue because of it's theme and limited mintage. At issue price of just $19.95 it was a must-have. Initially it seemed that stocks were limited and collectors, both numismatic, philatelic and cricket crazy rushed in to secure their PNC. This pushed the price up to record highs of over $150 and people rushed to check their local post offices to get consecutive numbered envelopes. Often in this situation there is plenty to go around but because of the initial rush so as not to miss out the price spiked. Now once sellers had a taste of the high price and buyers had paid a premium they wouldn't let their PNC's sell for much less. The price has settled down now from a low of $90 up to around $100-$120 but these still remain at a high cv of $175

I see much the same thing happening with silver coins, i.e., I don't have one, I'd better buy one now. The market price may eventually fall slightly, but you won't be getting mine for any less than what I paid for it!

Not unless my kids spend their inheritance before I do



Edited by Yass
01/08/2011 10:57 pm
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16808 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  11:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the coins have actually been melted (and I have to question that given legislation about defacing and destroying coins)...

Most of the "roll hunters" you see on the forum are in America. The United States is rather unusual in that it does not currently have any laws on the books preventing defacing or destruction of currency. There are laws against sticking advertisements on coins, and regulations specifically banning copper 1 cent and nickel 5 cent coins in place, but this latter one is seen as merely temporary, intended to prevent hoarding up of coin that the government would then have to pay to replace with new coins. There was a similar ban on melting silver coins back in the sixties when silver was formally withdrawn from the coinage, but this was only in effect for a few years.

America is also one of the few countries where it is even technically possible to find large quantities of silver coins in circulation / rolls / whatever; most other countries have reformed their currencies since silver was withdrawn from the coinage, and modern coins no longer resemble their silver equivalents from the sixties. Canada and Switzerland are the only other countries where "roll hunting" for silver is even theoretically possible, and I believe that in both of those countries there has been a concerted effort by the national mint in cooperation with the banks to withdraw and melt down old silver coins. In allowing the public the opportunity to profit from their lack of willingness to be proactive in withdrawing old coins, America is similarly unusual.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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oblakavshtanax's Avatar
United States
757 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oblakavshtanax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i don't know what you're talking about. the US certainly does have laws against defacing currency, as well as melting it.
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
oblakavshtanax,
US laws against defacing currency only apply to fraudulent alterations. If it was illegal to deface US coins, there would be no such thing as elongated cents. It is also perfectly legal to melt any US coin other than 1 cent and five cent coins. However, the majority of bullion grade silver coins are not melted. They are traded in face value bags as a convenient form of bullion in a known purity.

Quote:
If the coins have actually been melted, haven't you inadvertently created a vacuum in the number of coins available to future collectors, and possibly made those that remain out of the price range for new collector?

In actuality, the US Mint has destroyed more coins through melting than the general public ever could. The Pittman Act alone was responsible for the destruction of 270 million silver dollars While it has had some effect on value, you can still purchase beautiful MS Morgan silver dollars all day long for less than $50.
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CanadianCoinGuy's Avatar
Canada
54 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  01:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CanadianCoinGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do love morgans.I hope nobody is melting nice ones of them.lol
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Tim Stroud's Avatar
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I find silver while roll hunting I always keep the nice coins that would go high AU or MS. The ones that are beat up, scratched, dinged drilled, ect.... get sold for melt. If they are pre 64 US coinage of foreign they go into my collection even if they are ugly.
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Maineman750's Avatar
United States
3592 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  09:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yass, to keep it simple...would you spend a quarter worth $5 just on principle ? The silver coins will eventually end up in the hands of somebody that recognizes the value anyway.I don't search for silver but see nothing detrimental in it at all.
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Yass's Avatar
Australia
652 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yass, to keep it simple...would you spend a quarter worth $5 just on principle ? The silver coins will eventually end up in the hands of somebody that recognizes the value anyway.


No I wouldn't. But one of the points I was trying to make is that if you melt all your silver coins, where are tomorrow's collectors going to get theirs? And at what price?

As carmykle stated:
Quote:
Someone will get stuck holding a lot of expensive silver
Like the stock market, you don't loose until you actually sell the stock. The cost of silver coins may be artificially high for years.

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Maineman750's Avatar
United States
3592 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2011  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yass, I don't believe as much silver is being melted as it looks....most people are hanging on to the silver coins.
And your point about not losing until you sell is something most don't learn to grasp...it seems like a lot of people panic when the price drops, not realizing that eventually it will probably recover.I played the stock market for the last 20 years and just rolled with it until I was on a hill and within 5 years of needing it...then stepped off the train without falling on my face.
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United States
958 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2011  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppertop5150 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silver gets sold all the time for less then what people payed for it.
Grandpa or dad dies, kids take the coins to the closest dealer and take what cash they can.

Lil kids ( elementry school age )find dads coins and swipe um and spend um on candy or take them to school and loose um or spend um.

Some one inherets coins , they often dont relieze the washingtons and roosies are silver becuase they look the same as the ones they see everday in pocket change often they just get spent

I dont see why taking them from roll seraching is any different then taking them out of pocket change.

Ask any one age 8-18 right now if they had $5000 given to them what would they spend it on ..
Coins prob wont be a anwser from 99% of the kids ,

As far as it goes coins collecting is prob on the diminish as we speak. Over they next 20 years as the baby boomers die off and their coins hitthe market I think we might even see prices level off or go down in some cases.


I'm 35 still young enough to know whats hips and mature enough to cross over to the older crowds
and I can def say coin collecting in the younger generations if dying
Edited by coppertop5150
01/10/2011 10:05 am
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Connor's Avatar
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2011  10:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Connor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppertop...I agree with everything you are saying. I will be thirty later this year and I know if you asked all of my friends half of them wouldn't even know coins were made out of silver. I collect coins for the hobby and history behind each coin. If silver decreased by $10 or increased by $10 I would not sell anything. It's not about that to me. What does bother me is the fact that the younger generations for the most part are not showing any interest. Once the baby boomers are gone and alot of their collections is melted who is going to care about a Morgan silver dollar or a Mercury dime? I will and I am sure others on this forum will but will there be enough to keep the hobby going? Interesting...
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Maineman750's Avatar
United States
3592 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2011  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing that has happened from my roll searching all the time is that my daughter and her boyfriend are getting interested...I keep getting questions about value/rarity and my daughter even called from her job one day because she thought she had a Wide AM...it was, but the date was 1992.It's up to everyone to pass the knowledge and intereset down to the next generation.
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OldGold's Avatar
United States
272 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2011  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldGold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All three of my childern (6, 11,14) are into collecting because of roll hunting. While we mostly fill books and folders, I have seen them reading my Red Book for fun. I'm not sure they would be as into coins if their only interaction with collecting was the rare stop at the 1 coin shop within an 8 hour drive.
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19931 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2011  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't believe as much silver is being melted as it looks....most people are hanging on to the silver coins.


Yes it is. I spend a good bit of time at my local shop and I've seen a lot of silver bought and resold directly to the melters by the shop. One day I walked in and they had at least $10,000 in face laying around in bags they had just bought. It was a sight to behold! He said they were going to melt all of it.

Silver comes into this shop daily. Almost all if it get melted as junk, even though I've picked through some it and found some keepers. They simply do not have the time to cherry pick it all so they just melt it. This is but ONE shop. If think about the thousands more out there, there's a LOT of silver coins being melted.....especially at today's prices.
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