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 Replies: 30 / Views: 5,295 |
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
That would mean that the coins are being made with the obverse side down. And I can still see Bluenose, which is the reverse design, but no sign of the Queen obverse that would be impacted into the reverse of the new coins. The Bluenose appears to be dimensionally correct, as are the ring of beads that surround it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
Thanks bio, I didn't even think of an indent strike. Cool deal doorsy20! It's a keeper!  Quote:
but no sign of the Queen obverse that would be impacted into the reverse of the new coins If I'm not mistaken rikcando, these earlier strikes would be known as brockages. As more coins are struck and the old design (which would be the Queen) wears off and the coin wraps around the die, it starts to take the shape of the "correct" die and you get the mushy appearance seen above. |
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
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Struck through late stage capped die Again, I am only trying to understand this. It would take a very long time for the material to thin enough to form a film on the upper die thin enough that is appears uniformly distributed across the dies, including the beads. The way I see it, the bead holes would simply fill in and never empty. You would need something on the planchet to force up into the center of the bead in the die in order to force the material out. Instead you are applying an equal and solid force across the entire face of the bead area and the material in the die would not be displaced. As for late stage, I see no evidence of an foreign objects. There are no lines to show the cap is breaking up. The design appears intact with no discernible distortions of the magnitude I would expect from a late stage capped die as I understand it. Regardless, nice example and definitely a keeper. Edit: fixed typo Edited by rikcando
01/22/2011 01:25 am
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
All of the presses I have worked on in the past decade or so have sensor to detect such instances. They use pressure monitors, position sensors, and some have profile monitors to sense the amount of pressure at different distances along the stroke. I find it hard to believe that this could occur unnoticed on the modern equipment used by the RCM. I am not saying that it does not happen, but I would like to think they have safeguards in place to stop the machine on the first strike if it does happen. Maybe it is too difficult with this size of material. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I think its a capped die error myself, thats what a US coin looks like that is struck with a capped die anyway. I am definitely no error coin expert but I am just stating my opinion. I think its way to extreme to be a Grease Filled Die though. This is the best explanation I could find about capped die Quote:
When a die cap error is occurring, the dies continue to strike more coins even though a coin is capped around one of the dies. If the coin is capped around the obv. die, the coins stuck with that die will appear blank or have varying degrees of mushyness on the obv. due to the obverse die being obstructed. If the cap stays on indefinitely, eventually it will wear through the planchet and the coins struck by that die will become less and less obstructed causing a "late-stage" capped die strike where the image is less distorted. And that is exactly what this coin looks like, just what this is describing |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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And I can still see Bluenose, which is the reverse design, but no sign of the Queen obverse that would be impacted into the reverse of the new coins. You would only see the Queen in the early stages of a capped die, this particular error would be a brockage and is considerably more valuable than a generic or late stage struck through capped die. Quote:
It would take a very long time for the material to thin enough to form a film on the upper die thin enough that is appears uniformly distributed across the dies, including the beads. No, it would not take that long at all. I am not familiar with the specific presses used by the RCM but the US Mint uses Schuler horizontal presses capable of striking 750 coins/minute. At that speed you could cap a die and have it disintegrate within seconds. Of course, capped dies are not new errors created by these high speed presses and they did occur on the older vertical presses that struck 100-200 coins/minute. Late stage/generic refers to the lack of detail being imparted by the capped die. When a coin gets stuck to a die, the opposite side of the coin will act as a positive die(in this case, the Queen). The first few strikes would create a mirror brockage, a perfect incuse mirror image, and a very valuable error. After that, the brockage would spread and enlarge but you will still see details of the Queen. Eventually, the die cap spreads thin enough that it no longer transfers any design and the coin is essentially uniface at this point. A little bit thinner and the die begins to transfer detail through the thinned cap, that is what creates the ghost image of the Bluenose, and this is the stage your coin is at. This post shows a US Jefferson Nickel that is a bit farther along than your coin but not quite to the point of disintegrating. If the die cap is spread any thinner, it begins to disintegrate and the die is directly striking the coin again. Edited by biokemist6
01/22/2011 02:52 am
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
Thank you for that very informative post biokemist6. The presses I am familiar with are considerably slower. At the rate you state I can understand how quickly this could happen.
The only item I am still having difficulty understanding is the bead row. I can't see how it would appear so prominent in the photo at any stage prior to the cap actually breaking up.
I have spent the night researching this and would like to agree that it is indeed a capped die (not that my opinion is worth anything, obviously). I would really appreciate it if someone could explain how the bead row could show up closer to the edge more prominently than the center relief (or at all).
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
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not that my opinion is worth anything, obviously What I meant by this is that I am obviously wrong. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Regarding the beads, I refer you to the link for the disintegrating cap in my post. Notice that is has already disintegrated on the periphery and only the center portion of the cap remains. I believe that the edges of the die cap would thin out quicker than the center of the cap which would explain why the beading detail on the periphery is stronger than the detail at the center. The Jefferson nickel I linked shows this effect as well with peripheral devices that are legible while Jefferson' bust is still a blob. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Also, I am not completely positive on the indent strike and I have never seen one that small. Since the coin is reeded, it would have to be a 2nd strike indent as the coin was first struck normally in collar. The coin would have not quite cleared the coining chamber before another planchet was fed in and overlapped the rim of the previously struck coin. The second strike coin would be broadstruck in addition to being struck through a capped die. In-hand examination may prove it to be PMD but the offset flat area is one diagnostic for a 2nd strike indent. Edited by biokemist6
01/22/2011 03:05 am
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
Ok, I see that the legend is clearer than the center, but in my opinion it would be a function of the depth of the die at that point. The profile is deeper than the lettering. With this same reasoning applied to the dime, the beads are shallower within the die. It is more the shape of the beads that I see an issue, but now that I think of it, as the metal flowed to the edges it would drag the outer layer of metal with it from the bead features.
Still not 100% convinced, but maybe I should just accept 'because it does' as the reason and head to bed.
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Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts |
I was looking only at the downward pressure being applied to the dome shaped bead detail within the die. Similar to placing an upside down glass into a pitcher of water. I had not taken into consideration the flow of the material below the same detail. I guess I can understand how this works.
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New Member
 Canada
10 Posts |
This is amazing guys. Thanks for all the input. I learnt a lot of things just reading the post from you. I came to to right place and I appreciate all the research and discussion resulting from my question.
As for value should I ever decide to part with it what should I expect, I recently mentioned it to an acquaintance and he said he would give me $80 for it.
How would I describe this dime to coin experts such as yourselves if I was to tell someone about it without photos.
This is very cool stuff and I may find myself paying much more attention to the change that passes through my possession.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
You have a double error. You have a "Struck-through late stage die cap with a minor indent strike". I would think that $80 is a pretty ambitious price, but Canadian errors seem to be harder to come by than U.S. coinage so it could very well be worth it. If you're both comfortable with that price and can still sleep at night, I say go for it. Any coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.  Edited by Scooby Due
01/22/2011 11:53 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
This was a great read On strike errors, I just wait for you guys to fill me in. |
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Replies: 30 / Views: 5,295 |
First Page
Posted 01/22/2011 01:18 am
