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Wikileaks Impact On Numismatics

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biokemist6's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  12:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have a feeling this title will catch your attention You may be saying to yourself, what in the heck could Wikileaks have to do with coins? This topic is definitely pertinent in light of some of the diplomatic cables that have been released.

Flashback to 2007 when Odyssey Marine Exploration announced their find of a shipwreck in the Atlantic that held hundreds of millions of dollars in gold and silver. Within weeks the Spanish Government began filing legal challenges and claimed the ship wreck is theirs and is being illegally looted. Spain even went to far as to illegally detain an Odyssey vessel in international waters and force it into a Gibraltar port for inspection and interrogation of the crew. Spain has filed legal briefing in Florida US District Courts and Odyssey has been getting pummeled there legally despite the lack of positive identification of the ship.

Now we know why Odyssey has had so many difficulties keeping the treasure they spent millions of dollars to find. Wikileaks diplomatic cables have revealed that the US Government and the State Department have been actively working against Odyssey and providing assistance to Spain. To me, this is an incredibly shocking turn of events and scary action by our own supposed "government". A very dangerous pattern is emerging now in light of this and the continued revision of numismatic import restrictions in the name of "cultural patrimony".

One of the more disturbing "leaks" exposed recently by WikiLeaks involves the United States government's clandestine assistance to Spain regarding a dispute involving treasure coins, which in turn could hint at the U.S. government's willingness to trade favors with other countries using the repatriation of antiquities, including coins, to their country of origin as leverage.

The Guardian newspaper in London was the first to announce Dec. 9 that WikiLeaks had posted U.S. diplomatic cables online that impact coins in dispute. The cables describe how a U.S. ambassador has been assisting Spain since 2007 in Spain's efforts to acquire more than 17 tons of gold and silver coins the treasure hunting company Odyssey Marine in Tampa, Fla., discovered and recovered from Atlantic Ocean shipwrecks in exchange for assistance in repatriating a single painting to a private U.S. citizen.

An Odyssey Marine spokesman reacted to the news, telling The Tribune newspaper, "The cables seem to indicate that someone in the U.S. State Department has literally offered to sacrifice Odyssey and its thousands of shareholders along with the many jobs created by the company in exchange for the return of one painting to one U.S. citizen. It is hard to believe that this really happened. It sounds like something out of a Hollywood script."

Reading between the lines, if a U.S. ambassador is willing to trade coins worth millions of dollars impacting many US citizens for a single oil painting impacting a single person, what will happen when a country demands repatriation of coins in museums and private collections because that nation insists these coins are part of their cultural patrimony?

http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis...icleId=17093

Injecting a little personal opinion here on the matter, anyone familiar with Spanish history would have a hard time believing that Spain has any legitimate claim to anything. If the ship was Spanish and loaded with gold and silver, those precious metals did not belong to Spain- they were looted from South and Central America where the Spaniards were brutal slave masters to the indigenous population, forcing them to work in mines and foundries. I am not saying America has been perfect in its dealings with Native Americans(it certainly has not) but Spain essentially waged genocide to enrich the Royal Treasury to fund their endless wars with the rest of Europe and continued conquests in the New World. If anyone has a legitimate claim to it, it would be the native populations who died for it.

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Maineman750's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting read,and not surprising.But I find it no different than states or nations apologizing for attrocities commited in the past when in fact the people of today are the ones that worked to insure those things do not happen.They should not be apologizing,yet are somehow made to feel guilty about something they had nothing at all to do with.
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carmykle's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks biochemist6, I'll be send another letter to my representatives. I can't believe that Our Government would stoop to something that low. Wait, yes I would. Spain's rape of the "New World" is not over. Apparently our bureaucrats are joining the fray. We need to write Washington and tell them to get out of the treasure business. They'll make enough on taxing the returns from sales of coins and artifacts to get their fair share. Once again the government has turned its back on American business and the small investor.

I hope everyone understands that action is needed! Write your Reps and tell them to get out of the back-handed deal they've entered with Spain.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

While not specifically directed at anything that has been posted so far, I must give a gentle moderator warning to all who post in this thread...

I can see where this thread could devolve into a political discussion. While politics does play a part in what has happened, let's keep this discussion focused on numismatics.

However, I will say that writing your elected officials is definitely warranted.
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XavierOfGreen's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think its a foolish position for the United States to take, the tax revenue that would be collected by the US from Odyssey should they review the treasure is a rather large sum. By giving it to Spain were just throwing away potential tax revenue. Its just another example of America throwing away opportunities to increase its federal revenues at no expense to its tax payers.
-XoG (an old style American merchantilist)
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Question, whenever this went to trial wouldn't the Spanish lawyers have had the right to request and receive those documents anyway?
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DVCollector's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spain set a bad precedent by laying claim to salvage in international waters--is there any real dispute there? A bad precedent starts to appear legit when our govt plays it as a bargaining chip.

Current politics aside, I'm a little confused how any govt can lay claim to lost treasure, without proof of ownership. Take the Roman Empire for example--who really represents their culture today? Does Italy claim Roman coins found outside its current borders? Interestingly, these claims are unevenly applied towards items of high value. The logic of these claims is very haphazard. And, as Biolemist noted, much of that precious metal originated in the New World.
--just a few incomplete thoughts on the subject.
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XavierOfGreen's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2011  5:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well within political science there is a concept of the succesion of states, where a new state takes on the responsibilities and liabilities of is predessesor. For example the Kindom of England was the predecessor state to the United Kingdom, therefore any property that belonged to the Kingdom of England belongs to the United Kingdom. Not all extinct states have successor states though, per your example of the Roman Empire its successor state was the Byzantine Empire but the Byzantine Empire was disolved with no state claiming to be its successor. The modern state of italy is actually the successor state of the Kingdom of Sardinia and has no legal claim to being the successor state of the Roman Empire (unless one believes the mad rantings of Mussolini).

What all that basically means is that what was the state property of the Kingdom of Spain when the ship sunk is still legally the property of Spain today, though even if the Spanish government wins in court they likely will have to give a certain percentage to Odyssey per salvage rights.
-XoG
Edited by XavierOfGreen
01/27/2011 5:56 pm
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Guadalupe Victoria's Avatar
Mexico
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 Posted 01/27/2011  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Guadalupe Victoria to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If anyone has a legitimate claim to it, it would be the native populations who died for it.



Peru said it was following the case and Bolivia claimed that the treasure should be theirs. In the case of Peru, Spain said they could share it in view of shared cultural heritage. Bolivia was unfortunate in that the claim was made by Evo Morales and dismissed as socialist ranting. Unfortunately how can politics be avoided?

Still wikipedia has an interesting article about this shipwreck codenamed Black Swan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project

Also relevant is the cultural heritage part that Spain is using as a weapon to obtain the bounty. Here is UNESCO's link...

http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en...ION=201.html


Quote:
XoG wrote: state property of the Kingdom of Spain when the ship sunk is still legally the property of Spain today


The case could be made that the successor states of the Viceroyalty of Potosi or the Viceroyalty of Peru from where the silver was extracted are now Bolivia and Peru, and if there is gold coinage present probably from the Viceroyalty of Nuevo Reino, now Colombia, so it is not really a definitive argument.

The reality is that 500 million dollars are at stake and everyone wants its piece of the pie... remember even Mel Fisher had to go to court to claim a similar pie even though he had made all the work and it was in US territorial waters, why did Spain not made a claim then?
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Tim Stroud's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2011  06:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Spain set a bad precedent by laying claim to salvage in international waters--is there any real dispute there?


If I remember correctly, Spain recently passed a law claiming all wrecks of Spanish "War Ships", whether already discovered or not in order to be able leech off others hard work. I think they are claiming that the wreck the Odyssey Co. has found is one such wreck and therefore they have sovereign rights over it. There is a typical story unfolding here, anytime someone has a windfall the vultures, liars (read lawyers), Gov. officials, relatives (in the case of lottery winnings), and all other forms of lowlife scum come slithering up from the sewers to try and take it all away for themselves.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2011  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Spain set a bad precedent by laying claim to salvage in international waters--is there any real dispute there?

The question is was it a Spanish military ship? Pretty much every country of the world accepts the concept that the wrecks of warships of a country belong to that country no matter where they are.


Quote:
Does Italy claim Roman coins found outside its current borders?

Actually they have been trying to.

They were Spanish colonies and under the laws of the time the extracted silver belonged to Spain so the treasure was Spanish treasure when it went down and still is.


Quote:
though even if the Spanish government wins in court they likely will have to give a certain percentage to Odyssey per salvage rights.

Not if it was salvaged illegally which this may have been.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2011  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Spain recently passed a law claiming all wrecks of Spanish "War Ships", whether already discovered or not in order to be able leech off others hard work.
See? I obviously don't have a grasp of all the legal details--and I doubt I ever will. But, if this discourages future salvage operations, that won't benefit anybody.
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pls's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2011  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does Italy claim Roman coins found outside its current borders?


I read several years ago that it was illegal in Serbia for private individuals to remove Roman artifacts - mostly coins, of course - from the ground. And yet most of the treasure troves of Roman coins are found in the Balkans - the former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, in addition to Turkey and Germany. Does that mean that I have illegally-obtained Roman and Byzantine coins in my possession? Is anyone else living in Europe, Africa, and the Mideast under these same strictures?
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XavierOfGreen's Avatar
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2589 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2011  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In regards to the Viceroyalty of Peru, as it was a possesion of Spain and the coins left the viceroyalty and were legally the possesion of the King of Spain the Peruvian claim is baseless. The current day government of Peru legally has no basis for a claim though I do understand they have filed such a claim anyway there is no way that any court of international law would ever adjudicate any of the find to Peru. Even if the court found
Odyssey to have salvaged the treasure illegally, they likely will still receive some type of salvage award, now wether or not that salvage award will bring a profit to the company is another matter entirely.
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XavierOfGreen's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2011  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dug up coins are a very different matter than coins found at sea, if the coins were found on government property than they can actually have a very strong case depending on the country (the UK for example has very strict laws regarding treasure hoards found).
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2011  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You know what's funny, if Spain is so interested in recovering their "property", then why aren't they out looking for it?
Same sort of thing happened to Mel Fisher I believe. The minute he finds it, everyone claims ownership.
I hope Odyssey gets awarded 100%.
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