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Found In Mexico: Square, 1850, Star, Gopez | Hacienda Token

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Pillar of the Community
harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2011  6:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'm a sucker for something different. So I bought this from one of my favorite locals. He found it metal detecting at a "ruinas de un templo" or ruins of an old church. It's copper and about 0.750" wide.

Ideas?

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Identified - moved to Tokens forum - Sap
Edited by harrison2
03/05/2011 6:39 pm
Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2011  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JMerrick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a 'Hacienda Token'. They were used by ranch owners to pay workers to shop at the ranch's company store/trading post.

The tokens usually state the name of the hacienda or ranch a denomination (they didn't use Peso or centavo as these were official National designations). The term "Octavo" or 1/8 was a fractional token of what ever the "peso" denomination was called. The denominations were made up by the Ranch owners and they pegged the company store prices in tokens to a relationship to the national currency.

Values vary between a buck or two, and up to $100 or so.

In your example, there appears to be an animal above the floral design, probably a horse. I'm also pretty sure it says Ropez, and not Gopez. I suspect the weird symbol on the back is in fact the brand used by the Hacienda in question to mark it's livestock. An educated guess would be that the piece was found in a northern Mexican border state. Also, while the date could be 1850, I suspect it's more likely 1810.
Edited by JMerrick
03/05/2011 7:52 pm
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ElleKitty's Avatar
United States
819 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2011  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ElleKitty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a very interesting piece. :) I love it! Thank you for sharing it with us.
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harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2011  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I purposely held back a little information the local provided namely because he's known to spin a pretty good tale and sell contemporary counterfeits (some of which I really like).

He told me it came from the hacienda El Gallinero www.haciendaelgallinero.com. This hacienda is very close to the city where I picked up this token and has been around quite a while (since the 1700's at least). I thought the stamp on the back would help identify it with the Gallinero and a livestock brand makes perfect sense, since that was it's main role about this time in history.

Regarding that brand...El Gallinero basically means "the chicken coop" or a little more literally "the rooster coop." I figured the double "H" part of the stamp might have to do with "Hacienda" as well as illustrate the 'body' of a animal, namely a chicken. The "T" and the "P" on the right side might be for "Pollo" which means 'chicken' and would would double to illustrate the head and the "T" portion would illustrate the crown of a rooster. The second "T" on the left hand side being used to illustrate the feathers for a chicken's tail.

Additionally, if the date is indeed 1810, that would mean it was minted the exact same year that Mexican history took a huge turn in this EXACT same hacienda. (Check out the history tab on the link above) In short, Padre Miguel Hidalgo (a priest) was the spark that lit the fire for independence from Spain on September 15, 1810. He met at this very same hacienda to make the plans for revolution.

During his many visits, he likely visited the hacienda's private little church where this token was found.

How's that for a small piece of history!
Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2011  02:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JMerrick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well... El Gallinero is a bit further south than I would have guessed, because most of the large livestock haciendas were generally in the North, but Guanajuato is still good land for horses and cattle. The history page on their website does mention that they produced cattle, horses and other livestock, so the horse on the obverse fits.

I'm very confident on the 1810 date. While I don't collect the hacienda tokens, I've seen a lot of them in my life, because my family owned a number of ranching operations in Sonora and Chihuahua. Yours is very early, and it's one of a very small number I've seen that isn't round. That's another indicator that yours is early.

Without any association with El Gallinero, your piece is an important piece. If you can prove an association with El Gallinero, with the 1810 date, you have an unbelievable find!

After I posted my initial response above, I checked the old threads and saw another HT that you had about 18 months ago. That one, sadly, is most certainly mid to late 20th century, based on the design of the "Q" alone. I still can't figure out what all those hammering marks were on that one.

Congrats on this one, though... It's a heck of a find!
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harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2011  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JMerrick, thanks for the support! The token from La Quemada didn't look right to me. The seller said he bought a number of them with different inscriptions and some other old coins from a centurion (very old man) that lived 20 miles away (in the opposite direction from La Quemada and in the direction of a tourist heavy town). I didn't like the whole sand casting, with scraped letters, then hammered look either. Too modern and if anything looked like someone's attempt at making trinkets for tourists.

This piece on the other hand comes from someone that I know a lot better and has established a good reputation with me for metal detector finds. (I bought a contemporary fake with an amazing history from him, it was a great buy!)

The hard part is connecting this token to El Gallinero with out being there in person. Although, I do have an idea. It might take a few weeks, but I may be able to track it down.
Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  01:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JMerrick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just make sure you do any research from drawings, and don't even consider the piece leaving Mexico. I'm sure you know that Mexico is extremely unforgiving with regards to historical relics. A normal hacienda token really wouldn't be a problem, but the chance that this one is anything but ordinary is simply too high.

And, frankly, I do support the law. It certainly doesn't mean that you can't research it, enjoy it, and treasure the story it has to tell. An object like this always needs a good steward. :)
Valued Member
United States
302 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  02:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cud Wild to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The back of that coin is a rabbit just so you know. Why a rabbit beats me?
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Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  07:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What kind of a name is Gopez or Ropez? It's LOPEZ!
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harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  10:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cud Wild, thanks for joining the conversation...however what you might be seeing as the rabbit's "ears" looks more like a post-fabrication scratch. That line isn't nearly as deep and doesn't have the indent from being purposely struck like the rest of the design.

Libertad, again, thanks for your contribution. I would love to agree that it's "Lopez", however, in-hand it would take a lot to convince me that an "L" has been so butchered as to turn in it into what looks like a "G".

However, all of this may be for naught. We'll just have to wait for more information.

Keep up the feeback! I'd love some counterpoints if you have them. :)

If it were an "L", I'd imagine that it would have character sturture similar to the other letters that have flat bottoms such as the "E" and the "Z". However, the first letter has a curved bottom that seems more akin to the "O".
Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JMerrick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Libertad,

On Hacienda Tokens, the 'denomination' is not the same as the denominations of circulating coinage of the time. Using the name of a denomination, like a centavo or reale was actually illegal. "Ropez" was one of many very common token denominations, perhaps, the most common. You seem to see the "Ropez" pieces more from haciendas that raised livestock and horses. More agricultural haciendas used other varients, often suggesting maize, for example.
Pillar of the Community
harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2011  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well folks, I'm still waiting for a response from my contacts up North. However, I never though I'd see this!
ebay auction for a hacienda token with a VERY similar J-H-P "brand" on it. Ebay Link

Sorry if this is offensive, but for future reference when the auction ends, here are pics and key text from the auction:
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token
MEXICO, 1875 HACIENDA SANTO TOMAS?, LINO MARTINEZ, 1/2? REAL TOKEN, BRONZE?, 16mm

Another auction listing from the same seller Ebay Link

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token
MEXICO, 1875, HACIENDA SANTO TOMAS, LINO MARTINEZ, 1 REAL TOKEN, BRONZE?, 20mm
Pillar of the Community
harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2011  01:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a little update.

It took more than just a few weeks, but word is that someone in the cattle business in the area agrees that the "TJHP" mark is a livestock brand. Bad news is, they don't recognize it. Someone suggested checking a livestock brand registry. That's probably my next stop unless I am able to get back to the area and make personal inquires.

Anyone know anything about livestock brand registries in Mexico?
Pillar of the Community
United States
505 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2011  02:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Frazzle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So,its basically like the Scrip that the coal mining companies used to use in this country,so that miners could shop at the company store?
Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2011  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JMerrick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might try the city/state archives, if they weren't destroyed in the revolution. From what I remember about your location, there's a good chance they're OK. I would expect them to be spotty though, unless your state taxed livestock by the head, which could go either way.

I'll be up in Chiapas and maybe in Oaxaca in later summer, but I'm not planning to be way up where you were based.
Edited by JMerrick
04/30/2011 09:09 am
Pillar of the Community
harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2011  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, this weekend investigative numismatics is taken to a whole new level with the search for the livestock brand found on the copper token in this thread.

The main entrace to the Hacienda El Gallinero.
After talking breifly with the owner, and discussing the token's origins, I was allowed to walk around the grounds. The owner also indicated that an old round coin and a square coin were found on the premises and are currently in the town's history museum. He believed that this token could be from El Gallinero. Keyword being could.

Sorry the photos are not clearer. The "100k" requirement is a killer for color-rich photos...had to take the quality setting down big time, oh well! :)

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Down past the garden seen in the above photos, this old shed was sitting by itself in the woods.

A close inspection shows a unique design that looks like a typical livestock brand. Later, when talking to a gentleman that I believe to be the 'foreman,' he told me that this was indeed a brand that his father had designed. That being the case, it's age would be about 50-75 years old.
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Further exploring, around the back of the hacienda.
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

This is under the gutted building in the adjacent photos. I could imagine using a metal detector around these parts with a measure of success.
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Neat to see how many apertures there are on the roof line of the hacienda.
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

This is a coat of arms that is over what looks like a water driven mill.
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token

Inside this "barn," looking up directly at the top of the arches, you see the following three images...coats of arms. I was told by foreman that these pre-dated the token and were probably from the 17th century. This has merit since the "barn" can be seen in a pencil drawing of the Hacienda from the 1800's. (Seen on the Hacienda's Web site, under History.)
Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token Found-In-Mexico:-Square,-1850,-Star,-Gopez-|-Hacienda-Token
Edited by harrison2
06/27/2011 10:42 pm
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