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 Replies: 10 / Views: 5,055 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1812 Posts |
When CoinWorld reported that type 2 Lincoln Cents dated 1998 were found in circulation, I checked all my 1998 Lincoln Cent errors for this variety... Low and behold I located one double strike with the "Proof Hub" reverse... I first sent it to PCI and received a MS65 grade... When I was doing a show in Westchester, NY I showed this coin at the ANACS table and mentioned that I would like to have it crossed over to their holder, Randy mentioned that it could grade no higher than a MS64 due to a light fingerprint (now I know coins above 64 with a fingerprint are overgraded)... Here's the kicker ~ there is a seller on ebay that also is a CONECA board member that sells variety coins... When I sent him a ebay message on one of his 1998 Wide AM variety listings on this coin, I was dumbfounded when the reply I received in part says *exact quote* "Thanks, but I'm not really interested in buying errors on these types as I do not think many error collectors really care what type of reverse it is"... To my knowledge this is the only die struck, double struck 1998 Lincoln Cent with the Type 2 reverse as I have yet to come accross another... If that's not a contradiction to what their selling I don't know what is... Between that and some unique world error coins I offered to share with my fellow CONECA members that had gone unanswered, it was time for me to get out... Question; If the above happened to you, would you feel a bit betrayed by the organization you're a member of, or did I over react. Thanks for the positive comments on the few coins I just posted, more to come in the near future...    |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts |
Everyone definitely has their own preferences, I've had similar experiences myself. What I've found is that one simply has to locate the correct market. In a couple of years of dealing die varieties full time, I'm still constantly amazed and reminded that there is a person out there for EVERY coin! What one considers unremarkable, another may think is amazing. Sometimes, it's unfair to expect others to have the same awareness or appreciation of a subject that we may. I think the other side of the matter is this- There are collectors of Errors and then there are collectors of Die Varieties. When one overlaps the other on a coin, it doesn't necessarily double the appeal of the coin. Another good example is a 1970-D DDO Quarter struck on dime thickness stock. Ken Potter had one for sale for years- probably the only one in existence. To a die variety collector, the 1970-D DDO #1 is extremely rare and valuable, BU examples have sold for over $1,000. 1970-D Quarters struck on dime thickness stock are well known errors, rather dramatic, there is a high enough population of the date to make them collectible and marketable, in BU they can sell for over $100. But when you have a rare doubled die on a thin planchet, most of the important detail is missing, no one who desires a quarter struck on dime thickness would pay exponentially more because of the doubled die. I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes the 2 sects- errors vs. varieties are a world apart. Often, one who collects errors has minimal knowledge or appreciation of the significance of a die variety. And vice versa of course. Edited by liveandievarieties
03/06/2011 3:58 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
The ebay seller is not single-handedly responsible for CONECA, nor the other way around. CONECA is a large club that handles education and identification of errors and die varieties. This seller, EVEN if a board member or president of CONECA, is NOT the only say-so of the club, and does NOT represent the overall opinion of the club. Letting membership in a club lapse because of the opinion of ONE member is - well, over reacting. Now, with regard to the exact coin you posted - I can see the ebay seller's point, as liveanddievarieties pointed out. It's a "white elephant" coin - something of value to two different groups that loses its value to either because it's combined. It's like a 1909S VDB cent struck off-center. Some people like that sort of thing, but it's a MUCH smaller crowd than those who like off-center cents (even by date) OR who want a 1909S VDB cent...but not BOTH. I personally...and this IS my opinion...would not care to own a wide-AM double struck cent, because if I were to want a 1998 Wide-AM cent, I would want one without the 'problem' of it being double struck, because I am NOT an error collector. I don't care how rare it is. Conversely, your typical error collector who is looking for a double struck cent is NOT going to pay a premium because it happens to be a wide-AM cent. They are only in the market to get neat errors, they really do NOT care how close the A and M are to one another because MOST major error collectors consider the variety to be flyspeck, un-noticeable garbage. I saw a 1909 cent in nice condition with a struck through error running right through Lincoln's face in another thread on this forum and thought the exact same thing. Some people want the struck-through but would not be willing to pay the premium to get it on a 1909 cent. Others would want a $20 unc 1909 cent but wouldn't get close to one with a problem like that on the obverse. People think differently and buy according to what they think. Some people see errors as rarities and love them, and other people consider them Mint floor scrap. Some people appreciate the rarity of different doubled dies, and other people consider them worthless junk unless you can see them at arm's length. Then there are other collectors who don't want to understand EITHER of them and want to collect their coins the good old fasioned way (by date and mint only) and wouldn't want a die variety/error coin if you GAVE it to them. Knowing the market is part of being successful at selling in it. Your eBayer knew the market and was correct. Knowing where your market IS for your coin is YOUR goal - not just ousting the first person who says they have no market for it. And ousting ANY educational club over ONE person's doings is pretty much wrong no matter what the situation. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3592 Posts |
Have to agree with liveandie on this one....it is a unique error but it would take a unique collector to appreciate it or pay maore tha the double struck price.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Oh...and forgot to mention this one...
That a coin can never grade above MS64 because of a fingerprint is way too broad a brush to paint all coins with. Fingerprints will affect the grade of a coin, no doubt. But it depends on HOW the fingerprint affects the coin as to how much the grade is affected. It would be wrong to just assume that ANY fingerprinted coin will grade no higher than MS64...that's all.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1812 Posts |
Thanks for your reply liveanddievarieties, my reaction was why would someone selling type 2 Lincoln Cents, and mention how rare they are, not be one bit excited to see a error strike from one of a very few proof dies installed by mistake on the press. I guess what I'm saying is the mint released a large number of double struck Lincoln Cents in 1998 to the counting houses, those struck in error on a variety coin die has to be in a class of it's own (my opinion). I assume your really into coin varieties, have you ever had a problem with the top grading services where they refuse to place the variety (after paying the extra fee) on their holder? I had a poor experience with NGC a few years back where the Cherry Pickers Guide placed a value of $500.00 for said variety and non-variety retailed for about $50.00 in MS65 condition. Long story short, NGC refused to place the variety on the holder and I contacted J.T.Stanton over at PCI and he agreed to examine the coin, I received my NGC MS65 coin back in a PCI "Signature Series" holder graded the same MS65 grade, this time with the variety listed. I may be the only person that went from NGC to PCI... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts |
LOL, yeah, I seem to have to butt heads with grading companies regularly. I have 6 coins of a specific variety, listed in Cherrypicker's guide- they're under "variety review" with PCGS as we speak. I sent in one of these initially, got graded and attributed. Sent a second, same thing. Then I sent a half a dozen, all from the same rolls as the first- and they were all graded as normal coins- but of course the TPG kept the money for variety attribution. There is no question as to whether there are what were already attributed! I also have a pile of coins from all 3 of the top grading services- they are all coins that are incorrectly attributed varieties, or incorrectly called damaged when they are actually well accepted errors. I keep telling myself that one day I'll send all the coins in to each of the companies with lengthy letters explaining how they should be correctly attributed. I don't know if that will ever happen, but it does end up costing me a lot of money. I wish TPG attributers were as well versed as some of our forum regulars! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Better keep your PCI signature series coins - they are limited in number as the program didn't last very long before PCI went out of business. When DGS took over the PCI holders they announced a signature series but to my knowledge never really honored it by placing coins in holders. They too are now out of business. There are about 150 coins out there in holders with my signature on them, and they are widely scattered. No telling how many of them actually still reside in the holders.
As for the TPGs and varieties in general - most are unfortuantely WAY behind schedule in educating themselves in this matter and it shows in very painful ways. Unfortunately it's the collector who usually experiences the pain.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1812 Posts |
Oh...and forgot to mention this one...
"That a coin can never grade above MS64 because of a fingerprint is way too broad a brush to paint all coins with. Fingerprints will affect the grade of a coin, no doubt. But it depends on HOW the fingerprint affects the coin as to how much the grade is affected. It would be wrong to just assume that ANY fingerprinted coin will grade no higher than MS64...that's all."
Coppercoins, I am only mentioning what the ANACS GRADER said to me at the show. He clearly said NO COIN can grade higher than a 64 with a fingerprint on it (not my opinion, his)... I have always been into major errors, varieties not so much, your reply above has me respect the variety collector community more as I never knew how strong the feelings were for varieties...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts |
Sentiments can come out strongly after they've had to be repeated hundreds upon hundreds of times. No reflection on anyone reading this thread, I just know that many of the points that Chuck mentions, he's been trying to hammer into the collective conscious of die variety collectors for years. And for the record, I have a difficult time disagreeing with much that he says. (and no- this isn't butt-kissing. We both have similar knowledge, an overall view of how varieties are created, it's a black and white, cookie-cutter process, without maybees.)
On the subject of grading fingerprinted coins- I picked up a freshly graded PCGS Lincoln last week- a 1930 PCGS-65RD. It has a large print covering over a third of the obverse. Ultimately, grading is subjective. If a coin has an incredibly strong strike, is dripping with luster, has nearly no contact marks, then there can be a little leeway given in respect to an imperfection- in a nut shell- a numerical grade is a composition of many aspects and variables of a coin. You could have 100 MS-65 wheat cents, and each would have it's own strengths and weaknesses, yet grade exactly the same.
Grading is subjective, but there is an overall consensus on which guidelines should be used. It took a lot longer for me to become comfortable with mint state grading than it did for die varieties to make sense. Becoming a proficient grader is probably one of the toughest aspects of coins to master. And even then, everyone else has their own opinions!
Edited by liveandievarieties
03/06/2011 5:21 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
I guess what I'm saying then is that the ANACS grader had a different opinion at the time as mine and a LOT of other people who know how to grade. That's one of the moving targets about grading - it's subjective.
Bottom line is that even graders are human and put their pants on one leg at a time. They aren't on any higher level than the rest of us, and sometimes have a tendency to state things or do things that nobody else would agree with.
I could easily scout out examples of MS65, MS66 and even some MS67 coins with fingerprints from any one of the grading services...including ANACS.
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Posted 03/06/2011 4:16 pm
