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8Reales - Bust Variety Or Counterfeit?

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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2006  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I have tried Mr. Bailey twice (once on each of his provided e-mails) and Joe Flores once - without any replies. It appears that USMexNA hasn't been active in a few years, so I contacted Mr. Bailey through his Mexican Coins site.

It looks like my excitement about this coin is not contageous :(

~Roman
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2006  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TwoKopeiki - USMexNA is still active. They produce a newsletter that I receive regularly with articles on coins just such as yours. I joined the association a few years back and they have had a few interesting articles.

It may just be that they are very busy or do not think the punch is real. But if it is not real I would still expect an answer.

I would suggest that you contact Richard Long to see if he is familiar with the type.
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2006  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A small update on my search. I could not locate an e-mail address for Richard Long and ended-up calling him. He was incredibly friendly and told me that he would like to help, but his knowledge about this specific coinage was limited. He suggested contacting Don Canaparo in Hawaii, "who is writing a book on similar subject", and provided me with his phone number...

To be continued ...

~Roman
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2006  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I think I am getting ready to put this saga to rest. Here's an e-mail I received from Mr.Canaparo (whos name, along with Richard Longs' are in the "Acknowledgements" part of "Hook Neck" - how awesome is that?!) :

quote:

hello, looked at the photo. I was wondering what you needed to know about this. I'm familiar with the c/s's on 1 & 2 reales. this eagle c/s of course also appears on 8 reales and actually is S.C.M.J. in full. I'm assuming your example 's c/s's are struck and therefore genuine. the most common accompanying c/s for the eagle of this type is the ornate M.d.S. I personally doubt the C.M.S. c/s from the same period. the eagle I believe is a war of independence era c/s as is the M.d.S., the C.M.S. appears more modern, a hacienda or municipal in the same region and later period perhaps? as always it's hard to say conclusively about that. I hope this helps in some way. sincerely-don



From his response, the only thing I can draw, somewhat conclusively, is that the punch is real. I had no idea that C.M.S. was applied separately (and possibly at a later time). I have asked Mr. Canaparo for recommendation on sources of information for War of Independence coinage, but have not had a response yet.

It's a neat, simple coin with a great history, and will always remain an interesting part of my collection.

Thank you again, Swamperbob, for pointing me in the right direction. I have read "Hook Neck" (fantastic book on profile eagle coinage of 1823-1825) and ordered Compendio De Las Piezas De Ocho Reales (I managed to talk the seller into accepting $300 for both volumes).

~Roman
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2006  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Roman - that is great news. The composite nature of the two stamps from different time periods make it a triple coin (three uses).

I'm also glad you like Hookneck's - Dave O'Harrow is a very interesting fellow. Did you also get the Supplement with the book? I made a contribution to the Supplement a Contemporary Counterfeit Hookneck variety dated 1824 Mo. It is one of my prize counterfeits that I got on ebay for under $40. At last count there are fewer than 20 known examples of 9 different die varieties of Contemporary Counterfeits of the Hookneck 8R in existence. The variety I own is apparently Unique.

When you get the Compendium let me know what you think. My copy has decent photographs but I have heard from other owners that some copies had photos that were rather light and difficult to see.
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2006  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I should be getting it first week of November, since they will only be able to ship it Oct30th. Once I have it, i'll let you know about the quality of photographs. Also, I did not get the supplement with "Hooknecks" - it has been now added to the list of books to acquire.

It sounds like you own a fantastic coin, swamperbob. Does the supplement contain counterfeit die varieties? That would be very useful and I was surprised to see so little about counterfeits in the book itself (either contemporary, or modern).

~Roman
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2006  5:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Roman - the supplement actually lists all but one of the known varieties of the contemporary counterfeit Hookneck 8Rs - all are dated 1824 Mo. There are not that many different varieties and all of them are Rare to Unique. All other forgeries are Modern. It would be a real coup to uncover a contemporary forgery of any other mint or denomination, but I have been hunting for quite a few years and have found only ONE. There are far more modern counterfeits than contemporary ones - the 1824 Do is on ebay all the time. It dates from the 1960s. "Hooknecks" only shows the most common modern ones.

There are two counterfeit varieties listed in Riddell that are still unknown to exist today in any collection - so there are some exceptionally rare items to be discovered. The exemplars which were used to make Riddell's book were ALL destroyed in the 1840s - so there is no way to know if they have all survived.
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