8Reales - Bust Variety Or Counterfeit?

Swamperbob is our counterfeit expert. If no one replies anytime soon you may want to email him.

he will be here soon to answer, he usually comes in later at night or early in the morning but this is his expertise and he can tell you without a shadow of doubt either way so just wait for him to arrive and all your questions will be answered

TwoKopeiki - Super coin. Unfortunately I think it is real.

The coins of this era are quite crude and experts tend to disagree on which dies are real and which are not real. Guadelajara is one of the mints where variation is the norm and many of the dies have the appearance of being engraved as opposed to being punched.

Production methods were also rather variable so many of the tests you use on later issues are inconclusive.

I am basing my opinion that it is real on a few observations and a gut feeling from dealing with numerous copies both real and fake. While I believe that the coin is likely real - I know you want to know for sure.

Here is how I would proceed and why.

Initially, I said it unfortunately looked real. That is because a contemporary (made in the 1820s or so) copy would be worth far MORE than an original. The 1814 Ga is a relatively common date for the type with a catalog value in the area of $100 or less. Counterfeits of that date which are Contemporary Circulating are scarcer than originals and a Sheffield Plate copy of that date would be worth closer to $200. If you could prove this coin was off metal and NOT a modern fake - I would personally pay $200 in a heart beat.

But your coin displays no test cuts or marks which are typical of contemporary forgeries. Remember when dealing with specie coins in the period before the Hard Times - you are dealing with up to a week's wages. Anyone possessing this coin would have likely tested it somehow. Yet I see no obvious tests. Based on that observation and on the appearance of the portrait, letters and coin surfaces, I believe it is either real or a modern forgery. The weight you quote would definitely point to a modern fake except for the fact that in 1814 at Guadelajara the standards for weight were not closely adhered to. They often produced coins that were slightly overweight. So your coin is good as far as weight goes. But originals and modern numismatic quality forgeries would both be "good" as far as weight goes.

The second thing I would check is the Specific Gravity to determine if it is silver or something else. The alloy also is not really standard in 1814 so anything over 10.10 would point away from a contemporary counterfeit. A Sheffield plate would likely have an SG under 9.9. But a modern forgery could be 0.900 silver or higher. So an SG of 10.30 or higher would make me suspicious. Some Chinese forgers use 0.999 fine silver because it is readily available - but it looks darker. Other forgers simply melt worn out Mexican coins to get 0.903 silver (but they never would get enough early Ga coins to make it pay. They would most likely melt Mo, Zs or Go coins and none of those have the correct assay. More on that below.

The edge in this case can only give a rough clue if it is well preserved. You indicated that you could see the "correct" colonial edge design - that is good provided enough of the edge remains. Planchets were very rough cut so they often popped out of the edger resulting in multiple starts and stops in the edge design. But because it was dine on a two part edger - the overlaps in the design MUST occur in pairs. A very well preserved edge with ONE, THREE or FIVE overlaps would condemn the coin as a modern fake. But an edge with 2 or 4 or 6 would be correctly edged.

There is a test that could (in my opinion) be conclusive. If you could get an Xray flourescence test of the coin (a non-destructive test) which measures the composition of the coin's surface to a depth of a few microns, you might find trace metals that would prove whether or not the coin originated in Guadelajara. There are trace contaminants found only in originals from Guadelajara that do not appear in Mexico City, Zacatecas or Guanajuato. These traces never appear in modern forgeries. There are also trace contaminants found in modern fakes that absolutely do not belong in Ga originals. So, if you do find a labratory with the apparatus and you get the coin tested and if you can provide the results to me for all metals present over 100 ppm, I can likely give you a far better idea about this coin by comparing your results with my own. I have never published my results and NEVER will because once the forgers know the right alloy it would be easy to defeat this test.

Sorry that I can not be more definitive, but I do not have a copy of your exact die in my records, so I can not be 100% sure at present.

Also, unfortunately, I have no access to a lab with XRay equipment. I will conduct Specific Gravity test on this coin as soon as I get a better understanding of what exactly it is Is it the difference of weight in water vs dry weight? I will do more reading on this tonight, as well as study the edge more closely.

Regards,

~Roman

TwoKopeiki - I have not heard of the CMS and SCM countermarks on a 1 Reale. It may have happened but given the relative simplicity of that stamp I would be very suspicious about a forgery. It would be a great way to take a $1 junk box item and boost the value manyfold.

Here are a couple of shots:





~Roman

Oh, wow... That sounds like it could be a very nice find, indeed!

I don't know any of the big names in Mexican coins, or how to go about submitting to the USMexNA. I will try to gather this information tonight, once I return from work.

Thank you, yet again, swamperbob. If you would like to examine this coin in-hand, shoot me your address and I will ship it to you.

~Roman

TwoKopeiki - Don Bailey and Joe Flores are the two best I can think of. Richard Ponterio would be a good third, but he is more of a commercial dealer. You are on the right track for sure.