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Sponging The Rhodium Market

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Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2011  10:57 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I can't find an Internet reference to it, but back in the 20th century, there was a huge scandal where a guy set up a company using lots of borrowed money.

It was amazingly successful, and bankers gladly gave him more credit after he showed them dozens of silos (?) he rented to store his huge inventories.

Eventually, someone checked a little further and discovered most of the silos were empty, as well as the scammer's bank accounts.

Fast forward to today's precious metals market, specifically rhodium powder, commonly called "sponge", because it tends to absorb moisture.

Rh is one of the rarer precious metals and trades over an incredible price range, reaching almost $10,000 an oz three years ago, and now down around $2500.

Enter http://www.Kitco.com which handles huge amounts of various PM. They offer a program where you can buy one, five, or ten oz vials of Rh sponge, sealed, serial numbered, and guaranteed.

You can even have them ship you these tiny bottles, but there's a catch (other than the round-trip cost of shipping, and the ease of losing or breaking small bottles holding thousand or tens of thousands of dollars worth of metal).

Their preferred choice of handling Rh is you pay for your product, and it is handled by their chosen supplier, in tamper-proof containers, and kept in storage in your name. When you decide to sell, kitco pays their buy price, you get a check, and now kitco's name goes on the bottle.

But what if you don't like the idea of some Canadian firm holding on to your precious metal, or just like to see what you spent thousands of dollars for? No problem, for a fairly pricey shipping fee, you can have it in your hot little hands.

The catch comes when you resell. You can reasonably forget CL and 99% of PM buyers whose knowledge of Rh is what's on the bottle.

You can always sell it back to kitco, but now there's a problem.

By taking possession, you've broken the chain of authority. Kitco knows and trusts their supplier/storage partner. You are a question mark.

So if you sell it back and ship it back to them, they have to carefully examine the bottle, make sure it's genuine, unopened and of the proper weight, etc.

This will cost you 5%, or $500 if you luck out and the price goes to $10,000 again.

If you're the McDuck type who likes to swim in his wealth, or just are curious what you spent your money on, you open the bottle, maybe even weigh the contents, etc.

Oops! A big no-no if you expect to sell to Kitco. Did you lose/keep some of it? Did this "sponge" soak up some weight? Have you done the PM equivalent of spitting on the burger?

Kitco will only take an opened bottle at 80% of their buy price ($8000 instead of $10,000), plus they'll hit you up with a $250 assay fee.

So you either trust Kitco and their partners to keep it for you, or you face a substantial loss on resale. And if Kitco is a bad egg (and there is no reason to think they are), they could ship you an oz of lead that you would have to have opened in front of an assayer (otherwise maybe you put it there), or tell you your Rh is in stock when in fact it isn't.
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Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2011  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it's a metal to be fooled with, when I take cats or barrels of converter material in to have them refined, I settle out with platinum bars and fractions of ounces in cash and leave the palladium and rhodium, opting instead to take the value they offer in cash. The assay fees are ridiculous but reflect the fact that they have to boil the water out in vacuum and so on. It's just not worth messing with in hand.

I don't bother with cats as much these days because the competition is insane, but I still manage a couple hundred cats every three years or so just by asking around and cutting off cats from vehicles that are destined for scrap metal. A little hustle goes a long way at the value of these metals.
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swrbxxx's Avatar
Canada
834 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2011  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swrbxxx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is one metal I have been trying to pick up but to no avail.
Cohen mint has suspended orders, and I dont want to resort to ebay.
Kitco has been looking better and better
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2011  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The assay fees are ridiculous but reflect the fact that they have to boil the water out in vacuum and so on.

As a retired chemist, I can verify that chemists do not like working for free, so they do charge for their efforts. Of course, the company that employs them will charge double what the chemist actually costs them... like most businesses.

As to vacuum drying a sample prior to assay, that is a very common and inexpensive thing to do. A vacuum oven is not an expensive piece of gear. Just put the sample in a crucible, cover, insert into oven, apply vacuum, and turn on the heat to about 110C for 4-5 hours. I mostly let it dry over night since that was usually convenient for me. My actual work time for this was about 20 minutes, so no biggie. After drying, the crucible and sample is then cooled in a desiccator for a few hours. Again, not an expensive operation.

For metals assays, the expensive part is time on the AA system. Figure about $300 per hour for the equipment time per sample. The good news is that an AA assay only takes about 10 minutes to prep and another 10 minutes to run.

As you can see from this, there is quite a bit of profit to be made in the chemical business and those who own the business make 75-80% of it.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2011  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I forgot to add that the "sponge" form of a metal is also material that has been alloyed with aluminum, milled, and then caustic water washed to remove part of the aluminum. This results in a sponge-like surface that is filled with holes where the aluminum has been leached out of the metal. Sponge nickel, for example, is an excellent catalyst for many hydrogenation reactions.
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Silverhawk74's Avatar
United States
3670 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2011  12:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating subject! I think it is great how all the pm's have their unique individual quality's....

And to think there was a time when the Universe was young, meteorites and comets bombing Earth much more frequently, bringing us all they great medals from every corner of space....
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2011  03:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

I don't bother with cats as much these days because the competition is insane, but I still manage a couple hundred cats every three years or so just by asking around and cutting off cats from vehicles that are destined for scrap metal. A little hustle goes a long way at the value of these metals.

There's more competition, including crooks, because of higher pt/pd prices.

If you happen to be in a parking lot or you see a car along the curb or in a driveway, and someone's doing some repair work under it, call the police immediately! It may be a legit repair job, but there's a real good chance someone with a cordless sawzall is putting himself through reform school by stealing catalytic converters. It may mean a fast fifty bucks for him, and many hundreds of expense to replace it.
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2011  03:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Kitco has been looking better and better

You might want to check out CNI at http://www.golddealer.com/ as another price point.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2011  07:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rather than physically hold the stuff, perhaps you MAY? be better of if they hold it for you. That way, there are no problems with re-assay. There would be storage fees, however.

If you are just a buyer and seller, you have no need to actually possess the stuff.

The next step away is to buy and sell shares in the mining company. It all becomes a paper shuffle (or keyboard shuffle)......... then perhaps currency trading?

Perhaps I will just keep to good 'ole numismatics, from where my thoughts have strayed.
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