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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
The host coin pictured below bears two insurgent counterstamps from the numismatically fascinating War of Independence period in Mexico: NORTE (Army of the North) and S.J.N.G (Suprema Junta Nacional Gubernativa or Supreme National Council). NORTE (Army of the North): When the Insurgent Generalissimo Hidalgo was taken prisoner by the royalist forces, Don Ignacio Lopez Rayon, a scion of a distinguished family and a barrister by profession, assumed the leadership of the Insurgent movement. Rayon was the first President of the Suprema Junta Nacional (SJNG) and Commander in Chief of the Army of the North (NORTE). As such, he revalidated Spanish-Colonial coins circulating in the districts under his control by counterstamping them with a circular die having in the center of the field an eagle on a cactus; an eight-pointed star or sunflower near the tip of the wing on the left side, and the word NORTE below. The outer edge of this counterstamp has radiated milling. S.J.N.G.: Pradeau in his book "Numismatic History of Mexico", which was used to quote most of this post, describes this as a circular counterstamp having on the upper portion in a segment of a circle four ornamental designs separated by three distinct dots. Below, in a straight line the capitals S.J.N.G. Having studied his plate coin, it is apparent that the counterstamp pictured in his book is, in fact, semicircular in shape, matching the example below. Another really neat fact about this coin is the host - 1813 or a very early 1814 Zacatecas 8 Reales. I have never seen this host coin anywhere other than a reference book (granted I'm still young and rather inexperienced), so pretty excited about identifying it. First impulse when seeing the last assayer initial "P" was the file this under Chihuahua, but the bust was definitely Zacatecas. Ho and behold Calbeto listed an 1813 Zacates with assayer initials FP. Thoughts? Comments?   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki I agree the coin is a Zacatecas product of 1813 or 1814 - I own one with no date which uses the same portrait design. My copy is significantly underweight and I have categorized it as "suspicious" because it weighs close to 25 grams. I do not consider it counterfeit but it may be a "Debased Issue".
Here you have a two stamp combination that is almost TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.
Both stamps are pristine - the reverses show essentially no circulation after the C/S's were added.
But is it REAL?
The counterstamps particularly the Army of the North stamp have been FORGED numerous times. I am not sure BUT the eagle design is TOO crude for my eye.
The next factor to consider is the timing of the two impressions - they appear to be virtually simultaneous - Is that appropriate or even possible?
I would do one other thing if I were you, check the reverse of the coin where the coin lay in contact with the anvil when it was punched. In one case, a forgery that I saw some time ago TWO punches had been applied while the coin was resting on the same surface. The proof was that microscopic damage from the anvil's surface was transferred to the coin being stamped at BOTH locations.
These two stamps should not in my opinion appear together and look like this.
Edited by swamperbob
06/15/2011 4:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Hi Bob,
I will check out the reverse surfaces to see if these were struck on the same anvil. I will also post the weight of the coin to see if it has the same characteristics as the one in your collection.
Help me understand your second point where you mention that these 2 should not be on the same coin. From what I've read, NORTE was applied under Ignacio Lopez Rayon, who led the revolutionary government Hidalgo's death, during the first years of the Mexican War of Independence. At this time, he also took part with Morelos in the first National Congress (Suprema Junta Nacional) at Chilpancingo. Based on this information, I assumed these 2 counterstamps would be actually very likely to appear on the same host.
~Roman.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Roman - the conjecture that they should appear on the same coin seems reasonable - BUT it is not observed in practice to my knowledge. I pulled out my older references for dual stamped Insurgents and could not find a picture of one. If the association was actually very close I would think the combination would be common.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
TwoKopeiki, interesting coin but I have to say, it looks wrong to me. I have never seen a "Norte" counter stamp that looked that clear or that had that shape to the eagle design on the counter stamp with the "star" symbol on the left. I am very interested in how this thread turns out since I also collect 8 reales and am starting to acquire more of the royalist mint issues. I have also been running into a plethora of fake coins and counterstamps. This picture is the best example I could find in a reference book and the image is quite a bit different from your stamp. The image is from "Mexican Coins" by Colin Bruce 1981.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Bob, Jfransch,
The coin is 26.72g and the edge design is obliterated. Gut feeling and match of the portrait and reverse design elements to references still make me believe the host is real. I spent a few hours researching the NORTE counterstamp and have to say that you guys are correct in your assessment that it is too crude and doesn't match the numerous examples in old Ponterio catalogs. I am pretty sure the NORTE stamp is fake. That, in turn, would make the whole coin suspect and chances are that the other stamp is also not authentic, since both have very similar strike characteristics. My loupes weren't good enough to look at the grain of the reverse flat spots, but both punches were applied at very similar depths, which implies similar amount of force used.
Live and learn.
~Roman.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Just found a page on the ForgeryNetwork that has a dead-on match for the NORTE stamp and the following description "Identified on coinForgeryEbay "This counter stamp has been applied using a press, as shown by the depth of the stamp and the damage done to the other side of the coin. Look at the scratches on the coin, they do indeed go under the stamp, a serious indication of a modern application of the stamp. This and the other are 100% phony." http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...RGTefmsmCzY=Edited by TwoKopeiki
06/16/2011 01:16 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki I was not implying that the host was necessarily counterfeit - just my suspicions about the stamps.
That said - the example I own is underweight and therefore suspicious. I will have to get it out and compare it to your host to see exactly how much of a match there actually is.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Hi Bob,
I realize you didn't imply that my host was counterfeit, sorry if I came through sounding accusatory. I would love to see that coin in your collection. In fact, any pre-1814 examples from Durango, Chihuahua, Zacatecas or Guadalajara. No other series in numismatics excites me as much as Mex War of Independence :)
~Roman
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
What a shame if your host coin is real, which it could very well be, and some moron damaged it by applying the fake counter stamps in an attempt to increase the value. I agree that this whole series is so interesting and half the fun is knowing how little I know and how much I have to learn. One thing I have come to realize is that the counterfeits often look "better" than the originals in terms of crudeness and condition.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
A while back when I acquired the coin, I asked the seller in Spain if he had any other war of independence material and he told me he's sending something for me to take a look at. I had it delivered today and will post here once I get home and get images done. I suspect it will be the same deal - impeccable deep counterstamps with slight variation from the original punch. I'll see when I'm home tonight. jfransch, you're going to have a lot of fun with the Royalist mints. I've only been collecting War of Independence for about 5 years and I feel that I haven't learned even a 10th of knowledge on this series. If you have examples of the Royalist issues, I'd love to see those. You can check out some of my slabbed stuff here: http://coins.www.collectors-society...w.aspx?s=800~Roman. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I agree the War issues represent the most difficult portion of the entire series to get to know. It is also difficult to spot forgeries during this time frame. I believe that is in large part due to the simply horrendous standards employed by some of the branch mints. Coins that would be considered forgeries in any other portions of the 8R production "might" be real. I have more suspects than either originals or counterfeits during this period.
I follow Riddell in classifying as "Debased Originals" all undervalued 8Rs that missed the outside limits of the standard weights. Therefore many of the coins I own may in fact be "real" but I keep them because they are underweight and fraudulent.
The prices for this portion of the series also is exceptionally high even for fakes. I attribute that at least in part to the willingness of many collectors to accept BLATANT forgeries as real during this interval.
Even Calbetto in his book puts in an odd disclaimer saying that many of the coins he lists are of "uncertain" authenticity. So I guess we can all join his club of collectors who have no great level of certainty about many of these coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Here's the second coin from the same source: 26.8 grams Host 1809 Mexico 8 Reales Counterstamps: OSORNO - Monogram of general Osorno within an oval depression VILLAGRAN - Stamp of Julian Villagran, self proclaimed emperor of the Huasteca. Circular die bearing his name in two lines. Both dies used for counterstamping show heavy polish. Looking at the flat spots, they look distinctly different, which I would assume indicates different surfaces used when stamps were applied. Same incredible state of preservation and depth of strike as the previous example.          I will spend some time researching these tonight. Any thoughts or comments are welcomed, as always. ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I would be concerned about the counterstamps. The Villagran stamps that I have seen, and they are not common at all, have all had a sharp circle of "dots" inside the stamp at the edge of the stamp. Your coin lacks this feature as far as I can see. I also do not like the look of the inside of the stamp, why would there be lateral striations on a punched stamp? Someone had to go in and tool all that surface after the strike.
As for the host coin, you may have a bullion counterfeit, I will defer to Swamperbob for his analysis of the coin itself. The portraits on those years come in a dozen looks so I'm not judging that but the edge of your coin doesn't look right to me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The "tooling" of the counterstamps looks like rough sawing and file marks on the face of the punch - which quite simply do not belong.
These stamps were made from steel bar sections. The end was squared off and then engraved. The final step should have been "finishing" the punch with a file or other abrasives to effectively POLISH the surface. Here all of the cutting marks are seen clearly because the punch is so deeply set.
The final step was hardening - then the punch could be placed into service.
I concur 100% that the coin here is a "Boston" type bullion forgery made in the late 1800s when the world silver price fell. I own two of this same type with the line across the eye. Both of mine are incorrect weights however. It is a common type.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Greetings All! I have enjoyed reading this thread so far, and wanted to share a few specimens of my own with you. As always, I am eager to hear anything Swamperbob might have to say on them, as well as any one else whi is interested in this interesting time in Mexican Numismatics. I have two pieces from the Army of the South under General Morelos.     Edited by ElleKitty
06/18/2011 11:57 pm
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Replies: 24 / Views: 6,010 |
Posted 06/15/2011 4:19 pm
