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 Replies: 18 / Views: 6,423 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Wow...that's interesting!  I cannot ID the host coin, but perhaps someone like Gxseries can help out.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
I may be crazy, but it looks like a 5 fun from Korea. The date is very hard to see, but perhaps 1892?
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Valued Member
United States
347 Posts |
Quote:
I may be crazy, but it looks like a 5 fun from Korea. The date is very hard to see, but perhaps 1892? The original coin is a 5 fun from Korea but the date is kwangmu year 2 which would be 1898. The Chinese overstrike is a guang xu yuan bao struck at the mint in Shandong (Shantung) Province 1903-1905. Gary |
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Valued Member
United States
347 Posts |
I forgot to mention that the denomination is "ten cash".
Gary
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Wow...now I'm curious--why was China overstriking coins of Korea? There must be a great story behind that!  |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
570 Posts |
Thanks for the info manymore. Does anyone know if this was common practice for the Chinese to overstrike other coins? What would the value of this coin be?
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Moderator
 Australia
16827 Posts |
There's another example of a Korean 5 fun overstruck with a Chinese design here on the forum; gxseries posted it in this old thread. Right at the end of that thread, gxseries said... Quote:
There apparently is a story about how these coins were actually imported from Korea as they were demonetized back in 1902 as the chon was introduced (or was it 1905 that the fun was officially demonetized?) Hence it is likely that these coins were just imported as scrap metal. What's even more funny is that it's said that "private" mints used such coins as planchets. The real trouble is understanding if these were legal tender or it could have been a massive counterfeit scam back in those days. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts |
The Japanese took over Korea, and the money systems were changed. The older coins wold have ben valued as scrap. The Chinese coins were struck by official government(provincial) mints, so were not a scam by any means. The value of the metal was there. Coins of Chekiang are found overstruck on Korean issues, as well. They are much more common than the Shantung issue, I think, but still, wuite scarce.
If you ever get a chance, visit the Asian coin collecection at the Yale Museum. All the coins in that collection were collected from circulation. It gives a real idea of what was actually circulating in China and used as money- almost literally any hunk of metal will do.
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Valued Member
United States
347 Posts |
Actually, this overstrike may be a muled die also.
The Chinese characters on the obverse side clearly indicate Shandong (Shantung) Province.
The English on the reverse side seems to have a mix of letters which may include "Kwang-Tung" (Guangdong) Province or another province with a hyphenated name.
It's a little difficult to sort out.
Gary
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Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
Is this coin something that should be submitted to a TPG for authenticity? I wonder what they would put in the title... |
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Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts |
The Englisdh appears to be "HWANG-TUNG" or "HWANG-GONG" when it should be "SHANG-TUNG" I think that may be a combination of the original Korean letters and the later Chinese letters- there does appear to be part of an "S" under the right side of the "H". There is a Korean character at the left of the possible "H". There were 3 varieties in size of the Korean coin s that provided the understrike. I do not have mine avaiable to check which it is, and how the dsigns would interefere or strenghen the eventual product.
The Korean Reverse has its top flower at 8:00 of the Chinese overstrike.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
This one is a comtemporary counterfeit. The only genuine 10 cash coins that I've ever seen that were struck on Korean 5 fun coins were those of Hupeh and Chekiang provinces.
As for this coin - the overstrike appears to be the 5 fun struck on a 10 cash. The 5 fun is stamped from a crude and tooled die. The front of the coin with dragon really shows the deep tooling marks. Also, the features of the 5 fun are not consistently beneath the features of the 10 cash - it varies throughout portions of the design. This is pretty typical of a soft strike with counterfeited die.
PS: Similar story for the coin gxseries posted in the thread linked by Sap. The overstruck features on that one do not immediately appear counterfeited, but the mule variety cannot be genuine, as it is simply not possible that particular pair happened accidentally (they were not minted at the same time and place).
Edited by Numismat
07/09/2011 5:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Agreed with comtemporary counterfeit as well. Knowing that you are dealing with Chinese coins, you REALLY need to know what you are buying. Here's one good example:  If you don't know what you are looking at, here's the description: http://omnicoin.com/viewcoin/989266 There's a bit of argument with some Chinese experts I've written to. Some argue that overstruck coins were struck in private mints, hence unauthorized. Some argue that it's authorized, hence it was legal. Regardless of what the history of the coins are, let's leave it to one side for now. I've done a bit of research and sum up what I have seen. Most of the Chinese overstruck coins were struck in coastal areas that is near Korea. Hence, you may safely assume that these coins were indeed exported as scrap metal via ship. The next thing is, you need to know a fair bit of Chinese history before making any further comments. For the past 2000 years, the Chinese mint officers are quite "sly" when it comes down to the cost of making coins. Ideally, coins should have been made with pure copper but when copper prices shot up, the coin alloys get watered down with zinc, tin or antimony. They sure did understand finance especially debts pretty well back then. Now my real question comes down to this and this can be argued with either direction. Knowing that the economic condition in China was not doing too well in the 1900s, if copper coins were imported as scrap from Korea, wouldn't it have been more profitable to remelt them down and alloyed them with other base metals? For counterfeiters who didn't have access to a smelter, overstriking coins would make sense. For official mints who may be under the pressure to meet quota, this makes sense as well. Either way, I think both scenarios may have happened. Or who knows, it could be something called "mint sport". Overall, coins of both "genuine" overstrikes as well as contempory counterfeits are still very collectable. I think the original 5 fun coin, Gwangmu 2 which is 1898, is of the most common variety. Who knows, you might have a really rare Korean 5 fun coin that was overstruck to Chinese 10 cash. Rarest date is the 1899 5 fun which commands over 4000+ dollars easily. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
Thanks for the info gxseries! It's always great to learn the history behind a coin and about the events that took place in order for a coin to come into existence.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
gxseries - the "slyness" you mention is also apparent in R.O.C. copper coins. This has actually made quite a headache for me personally, as many of the R.O.C. coins are scarce in brass, but common in copper. Due to the diluted copper alloy, many of them have a yellowish appearance and prove a challenge to identify as copper or brass.
I have a couple examples of these, as well as the over-struck coins, and will try to post pics later today.
Edited by Numismat
08/09/2011 2:21 pm
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Replies: 18 / Views: 6,423 |
Posted 06/21/2011 5:30 pm
