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 Replies: 16 / Views: 6,652 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
The other day I read an article about removing mint marks on common coins to make them appear to be a more rare date. Which made me think at what price point would someone consider doing this.....how valuable would a coin need to be to go through the trouble of removing a mint mark. Which I am unsure how difficult it would be to remove a mint mark. I mainly collect Morgans. And I believe there are 3 dates in which mint mark removal are done, the 1895, 1894 and 1901. The 1894 and 1895 make sense to me. The 1901 not as much unless it is uncirculated, I don't see the sense in doing this to an EX or low AU coin. Unless it is much easier to remove a mint mark than I think it is. I am a "renewed" collector. I collected as a child and then was lured by baseball cards. Now 25 years later I'm back to coins. And I will say it is quite a learning experience. I guess what I'm asking as how prevalent is mint mark removal and how big a problem is it? What series should I be aware of that have these issues?
Any thoughts or additions to this.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2362 Posts |
The 1922D and No D Lincoln Cent is one example. Red Book lists a 1922D AU50 at $75 and the No D variety AU50 at $6250. I had my no d graded to verify it was genuine. I'm sure there were lots of mint marks removed but there are other details of the coin that verify that the coin is authentic beyond removing the mint mark. Member ANA and EAC "You got to lose to know how to win". Dream On by Aerosmith |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
For the most part, the presence of a particular mintmark is what adds the value but there are some Philly rarities and one Lincoln oddball. 1928P vs 1928S Peace dollar is a big one for mm removal. The 1922 D Lincoln mentioned by cipster is probably one of the top targets for mm removal due to the no D type. Undetectably removing a mintmark is a difficult task, most removals will leave scratches or a small depression where the mintmark should be located. Sometimes it will take scouring the coin with 10x or higher magnification and some people simply do not examine their coins to that degree. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1370 Posts |
Another reason I ask this is I saw a 1901 morgan in AU 50-53 condition at a local dealers. He showed it to me and said he suspected that it used to be an O mint mark. I looked at it under a scope and honestly all I could see was a bright spot around where the mint mark should be....however this coin had those spots all around the coin. It appeared that it had been cleaned to me. I looked at it under 15x and there was no apparent problems other than the bright area. Which that was why the dealer suspected it. I told him I'd buy it off him for $25 for silver content in which he agreed. I figured I couldn't lose with that. Right now I have it setting outside in my truck getting some heat on it to tone the bright spots....perhaps with this toning it may bring out more flaws.....or I may find out that he may have been mistaken. But thinking about it would it make sense for someone to take the time to remove a mintmark on a coin that may be worth around $275. Especially to take the time to do it so well as there is really no evidence of removal.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1150 Posts |
If your curious about your 01 Morgan, as I am now, I would send it to ANACS and see what they say. You wouldn't lose anything by doing that.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
I'm going to let it bake in the summer heat for a bit and see if that brings anything else out that may be more noticable. If I think about putting it in my morgan set to replace the junky one I have I'll definitely send it off. Right now my quandry is why would someone take the time to whipe an O off.....and do it really well to create a coin worth $225 more than an "o" mintmark. I'm thinking it would be easier just to create a copy. For now it will stay in my silver stack. I may take it to another dealer, the one I purchased it from doesn't have the best eyes, which makes this a little more interesting, picked up a nice 82 o/s from him that he labeled an 82-o ....also got an 1900 o/cc from him with similar circumstances.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
931 Posts |
As long as I suspected MM removal I would probably put it in my set as a novelty anyway. There is no proof as of yet that it has been removed so why not have some fun with it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
I agree....as long as I question it I won't place it in a book. Still on the lookout for a good deal on an undergraded 1901
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
There is a way to determine if a Morgan or Peace dollar has a removed mintmark- try to match the coin to a specific VAM. If it is a removed mm, you will not find a match for a P coin. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
when we were kids we would do this to any coin we had in our pocket. had nothing to do with value it was just something to do, so there is really no value that corresponds to if this could have been done or not
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
. Right now my quandry is why would someone take the time to whipe an O off.....and do it really well to create a coin worth $225 more than an "o" mintmark. I'm thinking it would be easier just to create a copy. It's much easier to remove a mintmark and buff out the evidence than it is to create a pair of dies, acquire some form of coining press, rolling equipment, a furnace for melting and alloying and then strike a copy. And unless you are VERY good your copy of the Morgan will be quickly spotted. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
good point. I guess I was more or less thinking about time management. You put all the effort in to making those items and then can bust out as many fakes as you want....as long as you took the time to make a decent copy.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
860 Posts |
I would personally submit the coin as is, rather than trying to induce artificial toning as that might give them suspicion to look closer underneath the toning. Toning doesn't hide defects from experts, only average collectors, so PCGS won't be fooled. IMO.
Jim
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
Not really trying to hide anything.....just trying to dull out the bright spots on the coin. The best I could pull off with this coin is genuine due to cleaning/dipping. ANACS would probably be my option with this, I'd at least get a details grade if its real.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
Thank you biokemist6....Just checked on VAM world and sure enough there are characteristics of the 1901 P....closed 9 and also a double olive on the reverse and appears to be some doubling around the ear.....this may fit under a VAM 5 (hot 50). I'll need to look at this under a more powerful scope......extremely happy at the moment......a great $25 find. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
good point. I guess I was more or less thinking about time management. You put all the effort in to making those items and then can bust out as many fakes as you want....as long as you took the time to make a decent copy. True if you go to all the trouble to acquire all the machinery to strike the fakes you can crank out a lot of them, but if you do that you would be better to fake a common date rather than a rare date such as the 1901-P. If large quantities of a rare date start showing up on the market people would start viewing them with suspicion and the fake would quickly be unmasked. But roll quantities of a slightly scarcer common date could be moved for some time without it being noticed. And if the counterfeiter is smart they would create multiple dates and keep switching them off. |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 6,652 |
Posted 06/22/2011 12:12 pm
