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Debt Limit Simplified (I Hope)

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biggfredd's Avatar
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9104 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2011  12:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

People tell me I have a knack for explaining things so they're understandable. Maybe I can help make recent events clearer.

For the last couple months, the mainstream and financial media talked about the potential collapse of the US as we know it unless Congress raised the debt limit, yada, yada, bankrupt, default, yada, yada.

Let's break down the three key concepts

Internal Debt Limit
External Debt Limit
Default

to a level we all understand, Joe Sixpack's family: Dad, mom, and 2.5 children.

Let's say this family (the gubmint) has excellent credit (aaa+), watches its bills, always pays on time.

Because they watch their money and want to avoid trouble, they've agreed among themselves to not borrow any more than $100,000. This is their Internal Debt Limit, and is the same "debt limit" Congress has to deal with.

The family can see that because of a seasonal layoff, they're spending money faster than it's coming in, and owe $95,000. Within another two months, they'll owe their agreed $100,000 limit. This is like the gubmint hitting their limit 8/2.

So the family agrees that things will improve, and they can afford to continue to pay on time (gubmint version--we can print more money) if they owe up to $120,000, so they agree to raise the Internal Debt Limit, just as the gubmint did, and we all knew they would. No big deal, just the family agreeing to a budget.

Since the family has excellent credit (can print money everyone accepts), they simply accept the next $20,000 home equity or cc offer that looks good, and they're set for another 8 months, at which time they have to address the new debt limit (and hopefully, will be back to where they're paying debt down again).

Now what about External Debt Limit? Simply, this has got nothing to do with the Internal Debt Limit, tho commentators acted like it did.

External Debt Limit is the debt limit imposed upon the family from outside. It's like the credit limit on a card. If our family wanted to raise their Internal Debt Limit to $120,000 but had bad credit, they would be stopped at $100,000 by the External Debt Limit, or could only get more credit by paying much higher interest rates.

The gubmint version of this is creditors (mainly foreign gubmints like China, or big investors) simply refuse to buy new bond issues, or will only buy at much higher returns (interest). This will happen when buyers get fed up with the foolishness in DC, but is unrelated to the debt ceiling nonsense.

Default is another concept. On the family level, you don't pay the cc minimum or mortgage when it's due. On the gubmint level, they don't pay interest or principle on bonds. If the gubmint didn't raise the debt level, they could not borrow new money to meet those payments. Of course, there is money coming in all the time, and they would cut back wherever possible to avoid default.

Both family and gubmint want to avoid default, because it can mean foreclosure or only being able to borrow at much higher interest rates.

hth.
Edited by biggfredd
08/04/2011 6:48 pm
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Maineman750's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice Biggfredd....mine was simpler : Don't spend more than you take in and there won't be any crisis
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junior e's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add junior e to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice clear explanation. I sure wish the government could be more like the family.
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macmercury's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  1:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The government wont act like the government if they don't do double talk, if they don't do double talk...
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Silverhawk74's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very well explained in simplified terms....

So lets say the external debt lets them have more credit to 120,000, and raises their interest on the house (gubmint), and now they will have higher interest rates (QE-3 bonds with higher interest rates).

So my question.... If the house can't meet these new interest rates, is a REAL default a feasible possibility in the near future, or will the house always figure out a way to keep the limit raising?
Edited by Silverhawk74
08/04/2011 2:46 pm
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  6:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
mine was simpler : Don't spend more than you take in and there won't be any crisis


True, but that went out the window with LBJ's Great Society.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the house can't meet these new interest rates, is a REAL default a feasible possibility in the near future, or will the house always figure out a way to keep the limit raising?


As long as other countries accept the USD in payment, the interest rate is immaterial. We can always print more USD.

When China says, "sure, we'll buy $2 billion in bonds, but when they come due, we want one million ounces of gold". That's when the nonsense comes to a screching halt.
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Silverhawk74's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems like in the late 1800's when European banks forced the US to make payments in GOLD only. Which would be a repeat in history so to speak as you pointed out above in your China scenario, if it ever plays out that way....
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Maineman750's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silverhawk74, I think I'd like to see that scenario take place....just to bring things back to reality.
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Silverhawk74's Avatar
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 Posted 08/04/2011  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree 100% Maineman. Like you an Fredd figure, it may take just that to stop this endless ugly cycle of debt and unwise spending....
Edited by Silverhawk74
08/04/2011 10:34 pm
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 08/05/2011  12:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
China is on thin ice because US is their best customer. Doing something drastic that sinks the US economy will blow theirs out of the water, too. It's like taking slow payment from a good customer, rather than lose their business entirely.

There's no reason China can't say "no more treasuries unless they yield 10% interest." They're such a huge buyer that other countries stepping in to take up the slack would quickly drive up the interest rate. And remember, those other countries will also have to cover theones coming due that China wants cash for, instead of rolling over.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 08/05/2011  6:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They're such a huge buyer that other countries stepping in to take up the slack would quickly drive up the interest rate.

I'm not getting this. Wouldn't the interest rates rise only if no other countries stepped in to buy China's usual purchases of US T bonds? If others step in, presumably at the current rate, then there would be no need to raise interest rates in order to sell out all the available bonds.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 08/05/2011  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If others were stepping in, China wouldn't have all the bonds it has now.

The only way to get others to buy is to sweeten the pot=higher interest.

As a consumer, I can buy a bank CD, a bond, or a T bill. I'll go where I get the best post-tax return.

If China quits buying, someone needs to buy those billions of Ts. I would have bought them earlier, but one of the options was better. In order for me to remove my money from that other investment, the gubmint will have to pay more interest.

Individuals, corporations, gubmints, makes no difference except in the amount of $$ each has to invest.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 08/06/2011  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Don't spend more than you take in and there won't be any crisis

That is. indeed, a fact.

Several months ago, my wife and I were watching the news on TV and they were droning on about the White House and this crisis, that crisis, and 3 other crises... when my wife asked me why everything seemed to be a crisis. I replied that, "To an incompetent, everything really IS a crisis". There seems to be a lot of that going around, particularly in DC.
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