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 Replies: 19 / Views: 1,923 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
SF Dukie asked about the market growing 100 times since 1998, so I thought that I would add my thoughts here. These claims are made from several sources: First to chime in is the Federal reserve. It bases the number on what demands come from commerce. Then the Mint chimes in based on numbers of sets and coins sold. The coin publications also get their voices heard. The coin clubs also get the nod. After adding up all the numbers, the TV channels, newspapers, and large dealers use the numbers to artificially inflate the items being sold. While it is very true that the coin market in 1998 was lousy, it has NOT grown 100 times since. The number one coin in the world is the Lincoln Cent. Not because of collectors, but simply because the mint churns out billions each year, and no one spends them. They get tossed in drawers and jars, and never to be seen again. Does this mean that there are a billion collectors? NO. So what does our future hold? Let us take a quick peak at our past. In 1965 silver was removed from our coins. Collecting fell to the toilet. No one wanted coins and most overlooked the tired old dead presidents. Fast forward to 1999. New designs, market goes through the roof. Future? The State Quarter series ends in 2008. Maybe 2009 Lincoln Cent gets 1 year face lift. The 5 cent coin design is permanent. The cent, dime, quarter, and half dollars all have movement for permanently keeping the designs. The Dollar bill (presidents) has a small clause in it to make the Sac a permanent design. So what can we expect in 2010? Same old same old. Who will want to collect the same old tired dead presidents? What purpose and joy will come out of searching through our pockets? What are we passing to our children and future collectors? Absolutely nothing! "We" as a whole have decided that our designs are the best that can be or could be, and have allowed them to be etched into forever. "We" did not learn from our past (1965-1998) so we will repeat it. Today "we" market junk errors, trash(waffle coins), and worthless first strikes. "We" have no desire for artistry, sculpture, or even accurate designs. "We" happily strive for mediocrity and accept our failure to achieve even that low goal. When the pages of history are turned, how will we be remembered? Edited by national dealer
05/02/2005 2:38 pm
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
quote:
Today "we" market junk errors, trash(waffle coins), and worthless first strikes. "We" have no desire for artistry, sculpture, or even accurate designs. "We" happily strive for mediocrity and accept our failure to achieve even that low goal.
When the pages of history are turned, how will we be remembered?
Amen to that ND...we can only hope we have another Teddy Roosevelt in our near future that will get on the Mint's back and direct them to bring artistry back into coins. Case in point, I have been enjoying David Lange's [i]"Complete Guide to Lincoln Cents" and when Victor D. Benner first encountered Chief Engraver Charles Barber, Barber was not a happy camper. After all, Barber had a good thing going and the thought of somebody outside of the mint designing coins was a threat to his tenure. From what I read, Barber placed obstacle after obstacle in the way of Brenner. Letters flew back and forth and Barber and his co-workers weren't pleased with any outsider telling them what to do. But, as we all know, they bearly made it in time to celebrate 100th birthday of Lincoln with the release of the 1909 Lincoln Cent. Instead of Charles Barber, we are faced with political correctness. The Susan B. Anthony and a 16 year Native American with her kid on dollar coins is NOT artistry, it is in fact. "feel-good-hyper-sensitivity." Where the reverse of a SAC is beautiful, they ruined it with a PC figure on the obverse. The Susan B. obverse is what it is and you would think they could have come up with a better reverse than to just shrink the IKE's reverse for her coin!?! But real collectors and numismatics are in the minority as the public is too stupid to figure out how to use a dollar coin (as they do in Canada and Europe). We want to put Clinton on a dollar coin instead of designs that incorporate artistry, grace, liberty and power.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
980 Posts |
ND,
Thanks for your take- it is interesting to look at "the big picture" every now and then...
Your observations made me look again at proof set mintages. They aren't a perfect measure, but on some level they reflect collector interest.
US Proof set mintages-and I've included all sets, clad, silver, and 5 SQ only for latter years
1964 3.9M(of course this year was anomalous for many reasons)
1970 2.6M
1997 2.5M
1998 2.7M
1999 4.4M
2000 4.9M
2001 2.9M(looking at this, you can see why it is sooo much more expensive!)
2002 3.8M
2003 4.5M
2004 4.5M
I have no doubt, that if one includes all the folks who are putting Sqs in their dresser drawers (myself included) there are tens of millions of folks. But if there were 2.5M coin collectors in the US in 1970 (likely an underestimate?), there is no way every man woman and child in the US collects now...
Funny how stuff gets put out as "fact"...
Aussies, Canadians, Europeans, kiwis and others- is there a big uptick in numismatics in your countries?
Don
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2724 Posts |
Take this into consideration. For the dealers who earn the 5% discount on Mint Products, $50,000 must be bought. So how many of the sets offered go to dealers?
I personally know of dealers who buy proof and mint sets in the thousands. When small mintage sets are offered, collectors flood the newspapers with whining about dealers buying up the group. This in part is true. Many dealers will buy what they can. Let's face it, with a line of credit in the millions, it isn't hard for the larger dealers to inflate the "numbers" pretty easily.
Add this to the total number of sets issued, minus sets not sold, returned, broken up, and the true number of "real" collectors will probably fall into the low millions. 4 to 5 million active collectors seem to be a fair number in my opinion.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
Hi Crew, I wonder how many children today will yearn for the coins of their youth as I did from mine. Moderns were around but so were "Mercury" dimes,"Walker" Halves, "Liberty" Quarters and plenty of worn out "Buffalo's". All in all some pretty solid designs that made me love and appreciate coins. What we are leaving behind is pitiful. Mike  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
[/quote]But real collectors and numismatics are in the minority as the public is too stupid to figure out how to use a dollar coin (as they do in Canada and Europe). We want to put Clinton on a dollar coin instead of designs that incorporate artistry, grace, liberty and power.[/quote]
You would not believe how many times I have argued this point to the members of congress. Today it is more important to keep the job instead of doing the job. Everyone worries about not offending someone or something that nothing can be done. We have somewhere along the lines forgotten that things need done, that decisions need to be made.
We reissue the same old things over and over, and for the most part people don't care. Congress learned this lesson long ago. As long as they don't rock the boat, no one will notice.
As an experiment, ask people if they know what will happen to the "Nickel" in 2006 and beyond? No one seems to realize that there is a law returning Jefferson and Monticello. On top of that, most do not care. It is simply a worthless coin that cannot be used for purchases. In the mind of most, anything smaller than a quarter is worthless in society.
The new presidential series is supposed to teach Americans about the presidents. Of course, this lesson is not even taught in our schools, so why would anyone expect coins to teach what the schools won't. The new series is supposed to stimulate collectors. Well we all know how well that has worked in the past. It is supposed to get Americans to use coins instead of currency. Again, we all know how well that works. Finally, this coin is supposed to inspire people. I think that we have proven time and time again that the U.S. Mint can churn out "Ugly" dead presidential figures without fear of being confused with any form of artistry.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1203 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by national dealerCongress learned this lesson long ago. As long as they don't rock the boat, no one will notice.
There is one more thing this generation has learned, and that is to build a monument every time you want to make yourself feel like you really care. A Nation of Monuments! Everyone should be feeling great! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
Coins are a reflection of a society. So America has gotten exactly what reflects it's *SHEEP HERD* culture-- coins that are sterile, shallow, yes men sitting in a row at a board meeting with the same looking haircuts kind of coins.
Coin collecting as a small society is just the smaller picture of the bigger picture--overall society. And authenticity in American society, it would seem, is something people are desperate for. Even to the point of paying hundreds of dollars for "destroyed jeans"--jeans that have been deliberately worn out with abrasives and chemicals to give them a "lived in look." How funny is that? People will spend hundreds of dollars on something that is still fake so they can feel that the jeans and their lives aren't fake?
This is why, IMO, Darkside coins, (especially circulated, toned, slab-free coins) are going to be the *shocker* in numismatics--there is a "down to earth" authenticity to them.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
longnine and OldDan have drilled this issue right to the core. Through guilt we build monuments to make ourselves feel better, then on the other hand we go,little " lemmings" over the cliff....very sad indeed. Mike
Edited by Mike
05/03/2005 12:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
[quote This is why, IMO, Darkside coins, (especially circulated, toned, slab-free coins) are going to be the *shocker* in numismatics--there is a "down to earth" authenticity to them. [/quote] I kept some 500 franc coins from before the euro out of nostalgia I see on ebay nobody wants to buy them anywere near face value On the other hand everybody wants to overpay for anything denominated in euros Todays modern coin collectors seem in a race to get the newest coins the fastest way possible and those collecting old coins seem a minority I stopped collecting postage stamps in 1971 because the same thing happened then to stampts |
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
I too gave up postage stamps as getting them was easy but try and sell a few, especially before the world of the internet! What a huge waste of time and money. Finally used years and years of collected stamps as postage! That was the only way to get my monies worth!
Now, I started collecting the euro in 2002 when they were released as it gave me the opportunity to be EVEN with the rest of the world. After filling Dansco Albums for 5 or 6 or interested collectors I turned to the silver euro commemoratives. It has been a challenge, being here in the U.S., but I have found coins with design, history, new cultures, new friends in foreign lands and a whole new view of coinage ART! This is what opened the door to those older, or as we say here in the U.S., classical designs, from nations past. I am enjoying this new found collecting and everything that goes with it and everything that has come from it and probably will never quit! As for the silver euros and commemorative euros, well my dealer says "Don't stop", and I even heard him tell a fellow the other day he would gladly accept the euro as payment, preferably in unc!
The darkside has really opened up new worlds and I really regret waiting over 30 years of collecting to finally "see the light", so to speak! It is a never ending pursuit and I get a break from the same bunch of dead presidents that I desperately don't want to look at any longer! Personally I think the "DARKSIDE" is finally catching on in this country!
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
I still have my 1971 stamp collection
I was told the easiest way to sell them is to use them for mailing
I may get back face value after 30 years if I am lucky
Something like 400 euro
Probably the six stamps on the first page are worth more then the four albums together .
I never bothered with history but since I collect coins I have
read more about history then ever before
Mostly French history
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Moderator
 United States
23519 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by SFDukie
ND,
Aussies, Canadians, Europeans, kiwis and others- is there a big uptick in numismatics in your countries?
Don
Don The Australian Mints keep churning out new commerative coins each year. some are just beautiful others have great sentimental value. And a few are just plain trash- The Australian Mints are no different than the American Mints in this area- They are just trying to make money. Why I enjoy collecting Australian Coins is because so many of them have different reverses each year. Not like a lincon cent that is always the same. With many of the denominations you can eiter tell the year from the date on the obverse or you have to know the design on the reverse. Maybe thats why so many Australian Coin reference books are sold (McDonalds & Renicks) To view som nice coins check out these links Royal Australian Mint http://www.ramint.gov.au/The Perth Minthttp://www.perthmint.com.au/gc/while you are at the Perth Mint site look at the moving image coin- Cute, but the mint is having a time trying to sell these. Hooray for the Darkside (foreign coins) rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
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Pillar of the Community
United States
980 Posts |
Richard, Like the varmits you Aussies put on coins. Like the pioneers in aviation series from the Perth Mint (shaped like the Australian continent, they commemorate Aussie aviation firsts, but ironically are legal tender of Tuvalu!), and find the dancing man interesting... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
quote:
Todays modern coin collectors seem in a race to get the newest coins the fastest way possible and those collecting old coins seem a minority
I stopped collecting postage stamps in 1971 because the same thing happened then to stampts
Old time collectors have hardly welcomed the newbies with open arms. We tend to be both rude and condescending to them when they come to shops or shows. They see letters to the editors and message boards full of insults and warning directed at them. The coins they seek are often called junk or worse. The real wonder is that so many collect anyway. The mint has been making a real effort to improve the product and most people just don't even seem to notice. The gains have been across a broad spectrum from quality to designs. Certainly there is far more to do, and certainly Congress is mucking things up but this is the American way. Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
Welcome Cladking! I don't think you will find that to be true on this forum. All peoples opinions are respected and appreciated! Stick around and I'm sure you'll agree. We debate almost everything, but all views count! Mike P.S I notice your a Hoosier! This forum is loaded with them. We are neighbors, I live in Cedar Lake or Cedar Tuckey for you "St John" Folks!!  Edited by Mike
05/03/2005 11:03 pm
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Replies: 19 / Views: 1,923 |
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Posted 05/02/2005 3:25 pm
