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 Replies: 13 / Views: 4,115 |
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Hello everyone! I believe I may have a 1835 8 Reales Zacatecas "Debased original". I have been researching the forums for past coins which might be similar to mine and after reading and old thread which speaks of "debased 8R's" I decided to post mine and see what you guys have to say. The thread I am referring to is: https://goccf.com/t/705411) My coin weighs 26.17 grams which as far as I know is too low for a coin with minimal wear. 2) This coin had what I now believe was large amount of verdigris prior to conservation which I was told can be a sign of too much copper content. The original pictures with the "green substance" are on this thread: https://goccf.com/t/997893) I found the "REVERSED EDGE/RIM" that swamperbob had mentioned on my coin! The edge design does not run in one direction like other Cap & Rays, this one changes direction in two places each directly across from each other. The coin also has more of a brownish color that wasn't really captured by the camera which didn't look right to me but it could just be a different toning. As far as the stamp/design, I don't see anything wrong with it which makes me think "debased original" but the sound that it makes is just like the other legit 8R's in my collection so I have another mystery on my hands. (literally) All comments, opinions or thoughts welcomed!     Edited by RealPeso
10/10/2011 8:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I am going to say your coin is probably a debased 8 reales or at least possibly made outside of the Zs mint. If you could please upload a very clear picture of the liberty cap in full, there are a few details on it that I want to see clearer. Any way it turns out, that is a sweet coin with the rim design reversing midway. Value as a real coin, value as a counterfeit. Good find.
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Valued Member
 United States
426 Posts |
Quote:
I am going to say your coin is probably a debased 8 reales or at least possibly made outside of the Zs mint. If you could please upload a very clear picture of the liberty cap in full, there are a few details on it that I want to see clearer. Any way it turns out, that is a sweet coin with the rim design reversing midway. Value as a real coin, value as a counterfeit. Good find. jfranschYeah, I usually steer clear of anything that has a hint of counterfeit since I don't usually collect those but the mysterious provenance of this coin had a certain allure to it. I'll try to get some better pics of the cap asap and post them. Edited by RealPeso
10/13/2011 05:01 am
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Valued Member
United States
115 Posts |
Hi RealPeso,
I'm an admitted newbie to this remarkable series of coins, but using "Resplandores" as a reference, I see a couple of elements in your piece that differ from the pictured coin. Of course the spacing of punch elements is a little different, but this is not a cause of concern in and of itself. My attention was drawn to the serifs on the "R" of "Republica" and the "M" of "Mexicana." The left bottom serif on the are is very elongated and the serifs of the final "A" of "Republica" and the "M" of "Mexicana" nearly touch, which seems quite atypical.
It also seems that the fatter rays on these earlier Zacatecas coins tend to extend almost to the edging, whereas your coin has a noticeable gap in these areas.
No matter its history, the coin has a lot of eye appeal, especially without the verdigris.
Edited by rexvictor
10/13/2011 12:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
I don't see anything wrong with the eagle / cactus design - seems to be an authentic 1825-1842 design.
The weight is interesting.
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
jfranschHere is a picture of the liberty cap. I tried to get a better one but wasn't too successful in getting the camera to focus. The main thing I would like to try to find out is if it was struck at the mint or as part of a counterfeiting operation. The weight is just too light in my opinion to be a mint original but who knows. 
Edited by RealPeso
10/13/2011 9:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
The coin has a marker that is common in debased and counterfeit 8 reales of the early dates of Zs mint. I stick to my belief that the coin was not an official product of the mint, thought it may have been struck in the mint by rogue employees. Can you do a specific gravity test (or take it to the local high school and ask the science teacher to do it for you as a demonstation to his/her class of the practical application of science in everyday life). Great coin. Good coin to pair with my 1834 Zs that is probably also a debased 8. I am suprised swamperbob hasn't chimed in on this one. He may have its twin.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I tend to agree with jfransch the coin has all the markers of the debased version. The two no one has commented on are the notch on the left side of the cap and the notch on the eagle's left wing at the "elbow".
The one thing that points to the MINT as the source is that the notched cap and wing are seen on coins that are NOT debased as well. The dies were made with King Punches and the chips may have been normal wear and tear on the punches. At first, I wondered if the chips were die markers added intentionally to ID debased coins since the makers would not have wanted to get them back later.
But the fact that there are non debased examples of coins with the reversed rim as well - indicates to me that the existence of the coins was discovered by the mint and that they took steps to produce coins with the same features OR that this was an inside job.
It should be noted that the mint would not have published the details about this kind of activity either inside or outside the mint because confidence in the coins would have been diminished and these copies were very well made.
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Valued Member
United States
115 Posts |
Fascinating to see the discussion on this coin develop with swamperbob's & jfransch's comments...
A limitation of existing literature on these coins is not having detailed reference photos of genuine coins with charateristic wear & tear in average (VG-XF) grades along with some examples of typical striking/die problems.
For example on this coin, I am curious about likely explanations (dies, wear, assay, etc.) for a couple of features:
- The nick on the eagle-side rim near 6 o'clock
- The uppermost leaf on the right foliage spray that nearly touches the rim
- The squarish period in the legend after "G(ranos)"
I suppose collectors at all levels find this remarkable series of coins maddening--but that's one of the reasons they are so much loved.
Edited by rexvictor
10/14/2011 12:29 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
The notch on the bottom left of the cap was the marker I was looking for (having been taught to look for it before by Swamperbob). I personally find thses coins so interesting I try and buy all early date Zs 8 reales I see at coin shows. Most of the F-XF condition coins can be had for little over melt yet offer so much in the way of study and history.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Thank you guys for sharing the markers. Very interesting piece.
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Thank you all and swamperbob for your comments, I had this nagging feeling that it might be from the mint but I couldn't go along with it beause of the low weight but what dawned on me is that these were debased ON PURPOSE! Not because of lack of quality control, shoddy workmanship or errors.
These were very turbulent times down there. There was plenty of unrest, banditry, rebellions and so forth. Of particular interest is that in the year 1835 the state of Zacatecas revolted from the central government and was brutally suppressed that same year.
Is this a factor in why these debased coins were made that same year? Was the state purposely taking a cut out of the coinage to defy the central government or was this just a small criminal operation? Was this just corruption by the Mint officials?
Who knows but definetly very interesting to think about why these coins were purposely debased.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I think it always goes back to personal greed. While the times were turbulent, the governments down there realized they needed to try and maintain the integrity of the coinage. With the exception of some of the War for Independence mints, the 8 reales coin was consistent throughout 1732-1895. Aside of course from the for-runners of Swamperbob, who were as interested in counterfeits as he is, just for another reason.
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
SG test came back at average 10.14
That's approximately a .775 Fine. Definitely a debased 8R.
Glad this coin survived to the modern era, extremely fascinating.
Thank's All!
Edited by RealPeso
10/20/2011 03:18 am
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Replies: 13 / Views: 4,115 |
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Posted 10/12/2011 4:23 pm
