Recent Buys

Thanks all. I dipped the 2 escudos in Acetone without luck. Does PVC residue suppose to dissolve in acetone ?

This is a new fact to me. Would you show us some examples of CC 20R or 5P of Spain, realeswatcher? Let us see how to figure out the original from CC.

Henry

PatAR, thanks for the comments. I have a 20 Reales which is not as nice the 2 escudos as you can see. It weighs 25.70g and the edge is pretty worn and dirty. I did my best to capture the edge on both coins below. Both have the Ley Patria rey as expected and it is barely visible on the 20 Reales.

2 Escudos edge













1851 20 Reales

I have doubts about the 20R as well. WRT debase silver how does ring test and magnetic behavior differ from .9 silver ? I use a N52 single magnetic sliding off the coin to determine the magnetic behavior. The 20R seems to slide off a fraction faster than my other silver crowns that I know genuine. I think wonghinghi has built a grid of N52 magnets and slide the coin off of that. Any idea if this will produce different results ?

Certainly if the 1851 20R thuds rather than rings it may be cast, heavily debased, or contain no silver at all. If it is debased silver, in some cases the content may not be radically different from the expected ratio. So long as the coin is struck rather than cast, I would be hard pressed to describe a procedure for discerning silver content which may differ by as little as 20% by ring test alone. How do I describe what to expect to hear such that you could know if you hear the same thing? I'm not certain I could distinguish it in that manner either.

It is always challenging to ascertain the true nature of a coin when limited to non-destructive testing. In this particular case and at this stage, I believe the most substantive data for making an assessment would come from a specific gravity test.

Q.Got these two recently, not too rare but not common either. Just wanted to share with everybody. Any idea what has caused the greenish color on the 2 Escudos , perhaps cleaned ?

Spain 1867 2 Escudos

weigh 25.92g

A. Copper tends to leach to the surface. Out of corrosion products, cuprite Cu2O and also malachite Cu2(CO3)(OH)2 are the most common copper oxides in a coin alloy.
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachite
Malachite is a vibrant green and copper oxide is red. Depending on environmental conditions you can get both or either.
As mentioned the other possibility is man induced corrosion as with a PVC holders - these holders impart chlorides which acts as a corrosive agents. However acetone WILL remove it - if not - its part of the alloy and probably copper surface leaching or selective corrosion process (i.e., copper leaching to the surface from the alloy).
I found these issues for a lack of a better term boring ... so I have not spent much time expounding the work of Barrerra which uses these simplistic alloy classifications. Realize most of these regal issues have the ~5% Cu so this kind of effect SUGGEST a debased alloy.
From experience and owning several specimens it may not be a debased alloy but just selective corrosion. If you do have this effect and you do on your coin realize the Weight Tolerance should be within +/- 0.5 grams of the regal standard for a debased alloy. Again - This green color is indicative that you MIGHT? have a FALSA or debased alloy.

You do realize that all the Isabel II Au/Pt-host issues are from South American Mints ... for good reason <VVBG>.

BTW - the 1861 to me anyway does not look like improper alloy mixing bands but some foreign object was put on top of the coin creating these bands ... but if under a loop if the band edges are jagged then you MAY have this error type as part of the annealing blank making process.

John Lorenzo
United States

Hello all. Sorry it took me a while to respond, it's been a very busy time.

I'm excited to see even more Isabel's posted!

In terms of weight: 20 Reales of the decree of 1848, 1848-1863 26.29g and 2 Escudos of the decree of 1864, 1865-1868 25.96g

It should be noted that there is a variation in the weight of these coins when they leave the mint. My research indicates that is about 0.15g.

Also, although my studies still need more samples, I've found that for these particular coins the wear on an authentic coin in EF condition accounts for as much as another 1% loss. Also, coins that are cleaned lose approximately 0.4% to 0.7% of their weight to the cleaning. My current best estimate of a cleaned EF coin is that it could have up to 1.4% loss from design weight + manufacturing tolerance. At VF (estimated 2.2%) and below the weight loss is more significant, reaching about 3% loss at F/VG.

So it is possible for a 20 reales in EF that was cleaned to weight as little as 26.29 - 0.15 - (26.29*0.014) = 25.77g And, of course, a VF/F coin would weight a bit less.

Certainly, if a coin is off by 5% or more it's highly suspect and would warrant other tests to confirm.

Plonker, I hope your interpretation of my previous comments did not lead you to believe your coin is counterfeit. For my part, I don't know yet. I was simply suggesting another point of information to verify.

That said, I was remiss in not asking the diameter of the coin. For these 20 reales 37.0 to 37.2mm is what I would generally expect. Remember to measure at several points and take the largest measurement.

Also, as part of my ongoing studies I would be very grateful for any thickness measurements you folks might be willing to provide. Ideally, I would like measurements at the rim at 3 or 4 points roughly equidistant from each other around the perimeter. Please identify the year/mint associated with each set of measurements. Many thanks!

Sorry about your troubles, Plonker. Even so I'm very grateful for your posting of this counterfeit 1861 20 reales. I've not previously seen what the edge lettering looks like on this class of counterfeit. If I'm not mistaken this is a modern counterfeit and a fairly common one once you've spent enough time with Isabel II coins. While the edge lettering is certainly definitive, also take note of the color variation on Isabel's face where the coating has worn off the core. Even when the coating is intact, you can quickly identify this particular class of counterfeit by the missing hair extending down the neck at the back of Isabel's head. Compare the photo above to your 2 escudos and you'll see it immediately.

It was difficult to fully discern the 1851 20 reales you posted due to the gunk/corrosion thereon (and the nature of viewing a photo over internet). The lettering should look like what is on your 2 escudos or the samples that wonghinghi posted. The letters should not fill the entire edge. They are generally oriented closer to either the top or bottom. Also, the fleur-de-lis can vary as seen on wonghinghi's photo, but they are always a single icon without separate leaves. And, of course, the lines between elements are more subtle.

Certainly now you have the advantage of that much more experience and will be better prepared next time. Good hunting!