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 Replies: 114 / Views: 8,907 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1005 Posts |
Agree. When being direct crosses over to being rude and disrespectful the focus on the topic is lost and people like me will stay away from these forums.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
789 Posts |
Of course you are both correct.
I apologize if I have offended anyone and I promise to take the high road in the future.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
8938 Posts |
Sounds good! I appreciate a person who can say that
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I do know fads come and go. Fads do come and go, but fads are short lived. PCGS and NGC are both over 30 years old. CAC is over a decade old, there is no fad. As far as who JA is, that would be John Albanese. He was one of the founders of PCGS, NGC and founded CAC. He also ran/runs a nonprofit that helps collectors who were scammed get their money back. There probably isn't anyone who has seen more high end US coins than he has and his reputation/resume would stack up with anyone's. If this were the early 1990s we could be talking about whether or not the TPGs were a fad, but 30 plus years later there is no fad they are here to stay and that ship has sailed. Same goes with CAC that was founded over a decade ago. Many have tried to copy CAC and none have come close to the same acceptance with the one possible exception if Photo Seal which a number of ICH and Flying Eagle specialists prefer. I have no interest in calling you an old timer or anything like that, just in objective information being posted. I don't agree with every decision that PCGS or CAC makes but the first thing I do is ask myself why not just assume they're fools. 99.99% of the time I see I had missed something. If I still can't figure it out I'll probably resubmit it and see if it was something very borderline or try and find someone who can find it. You actually can talk to CAC about your submissions and they don't even charge collectors for things that do not sticker either. No one has to utilize these types of resources that help collectors much more than dealers, but they should at least be objective when commenting about them and not try to diminish them like they're just some random people who don't look at coins all day for a living. We all have/had various careers and experience helps the best get better, it's not different with the graders. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6384 Posts |
I'd like to comment on the coin that prompted the thread. Both the outdated TruVu photo and the Great Collections auction photo suggest this is a coin with below-average eye appeal. A more attractive example in PCGS XF-40 would likely have sold for significantly more than $2500. The auction topped out at a price reflecting the quality of the coin and the buyer presumably was happy with the deal.
I'd say it all worked out OK!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8938 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
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I'd say it all worked out OK! I agree. All's well that ends well. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I'm continuing the debate because it is interesting. Quote:
CAC is over a decade old, there is no fad. Fad, no. Business, yes. What are businesses designed to do? Make money. I would argue it's even more obvious if the guy that founded PCGS (money-making business) took the next evolutionary step years later of founding CAC (another money-making business). How many Samsung Galaxys and iPhones will they keep making? It's just the marketing strategy. The latest and greatest. But let's step way back. Are TPGs and CAC valuable to, worthwhile, and good for numismatics? Collectors? Dealers? Well it depends on how you define those things I suppose. In my opinion, if you're looking at it in the most general sense, both TPGs and CAC help increase the total flow of sales within numismatics, create more variety of products, and hopefully make numismatics more popular as these are both widely discussed topics in numismatics. So in a general sense, to me that seems like a win. Are those companies profiting from that? Yes. Are they influencing realized auction prices? Yes. Now how that affects collectors financially, etc. is just a different, particular aspect of that. I think maybe we all share some of those general views, it just might depend on what aspects apply to you or that you are interested in. Maybe there's some common ground. Maybe I'm just rambling at this point. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can see points from all sides, it just depends how you look at it. Quote:
You actually can talk to CAC about your submissions
The thing about CAC is I can't do that. Last time I checked, CAC was not accepting new members, and hasn't for a long time. That's one difference between CAC and the TPGs - it's closed off to your average collector. It's not an openly available resource like the TPGs. Why is that? Anyone can send an IHC in for a Photo Seal. If I had to guess, there's people that see that as elitist or feel like they've missed the boat, and that probably creates a general negative opinion about it. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:The thing about CAC is I can't do that. Last time I checked, CAC was not accepting new members, and hasn't for a long time. That's one difference between CAC and the TPGs - it's closed off to your average collector. It's not an openly available resource like the TPGs. Why is that? Anyone can send an IHC in for a Photo Seal. If I had to guess, there's people that see that as elitist or feel like they've missed the boat, and that probably creates a general negative opinion about it. I just want to address this in a separate post as it is something I have had to address several times over the years. Unless something has drastically changed all you have to do is pick up the phone and talk to them to get on their waiting list. One day a membership packet will show up when it's your turn. They don't charge a membership fee and often times send out Christmas gifts in years past so extra members. You just have to put some effort into it, but the idea they are anti-collector is completely wrong. As far as a comparison to them and Photo Seal, Photo Seal as far as I can tell charges for every coin submitted, CAC only charges collectors for coins that sticker yes that mean it's free for the rejected ones |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Membership closed and waiting list means not openly available, that's my main point. I didn't say anti-collector. I see it as an exclusive club of sorts. Do you think it would be beneficial if it were expanded to allow as many members that wanted to join?
Personally for me I'd rather pay $15 right now and be done with it than to wait an unspecified number of days/months/years for a membership packet.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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What are businesses designed to do? Make money. True, but that does't mean they cannot duel purposes. One thing to keep in mind is that CAC makes it's money buying and selling what it has stickered, not stickering things. CAC doesn't need to exist for JA and that group to make a ton of money in the coin market and they do even get involved sometimes on big coins that did not sticker and don't get slap a sticker on for their own benefit. Th traditional business model of we have to do this to make money really doesn't apply, they could close shop tomorrow and he could still make a ton of money in the coin market. Quote:
I would argue it's even more obvious if the guy that founded PCGS (money-making business) took the next evolutionary step years later of founding CAC (another money-making business). He was apart of the found of both PCGS and NGC. That was also basically 30 years prior to starting CAC. It was initially designed to be a high end of the market thing, the market and collectors are what ended Quote:
Now how that affects collectors financially, etc. is just a different, particular aspect of that. I know some get upset about rising prices on the nicer material, but that is good for the hobby overall. If you really think about the financial impact it is VERY far in the collectors favor. Before the TPGs and CAC were there good dealers absolutely, were there shady dealers absolutely, were more of than shady than most people realized also absolutely. The doctoring that occurred and the whole sell as MS rebuy as AU was very real and still is. The TPG levels the playing field and makes it much harder for people to hype up subpar for the grade coins. At any local or regional smaller show you can bet there are some dealers there with cracked out details coins selling them as problem free The ability to have the internet market with the TPGs and CAC is the best thing that has happened to collectors. No one is at the mercy of a local shop anymore and collectors in general have spread out their interests and what they collect. Without the businesses who are not evil just because they have to keep a profit to stay open collectors would be much more vulnerable overall |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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Membership closed and waiting list means not openly available, that's my main point. If someone cannot be bothered to make a phone call to join that's on them. There comes a point where the you can lead a horse to water but you can't teach them to drink comes into play. Why not call them when they open today instead of just trying to portray in an incorrect light? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
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Unless something has drastically changed all you have to do is pick up the phone and talk to them to get on their waiting list. Quote:
If someone cannot be bothered to make a phone call to join that's on them. You just contradicted yourself. You cannot just "call and join". You can call to be put on a waiting list. To which I said in my post above: Quote:
Personally for me I'd rather pay $15 right now and be done with it than to wait an unspecified number of days/months/years for a membership packet. I do not want to be put on a waiting list! That's just my own preference. To each their own. Quote:
Membership closed and waiting list means not openly available, that's my main point. I don't see how the above quote is portraying anything in an incorrect light. That's the way the process works. I'm not bashing it; they can have their process set up however they like. I can choose whether or not to use it like everyone else. Just curious how much more CAC would be used if it was open to all with no waiting lists. Quote:I know some get upset about rising prices on the nicer material, but that is good for the hobby overall. If you really think about the financial impact it is VERY far in the collectors favor. Before the TPGs and CAC were there good dealers absolutely, were there shady dealers absolutely, were more of than shady than most people realized also absolutely. The doctoring that occurred and the whole sell as MS rebuy as AU was very real and still is. The TPG levels the playing field and makes it much harder for people to hype up subpar for the grade coins. At any local or regional smaller show you can bet there are some dealers there with cracked out details coins selling them as problem free The ability to have the internet market with the TPGs and CAC is the best thing that has happened to collectors. No one is at the mercy of a local shop anymore and collectors in general have spread out their interests and what they collect. Without the businesses who are not evil just because they have to keep a profit to stay open collectors would be much more vulnerable overall Good points here, thanks for the info. The market is better than it was for sure. |
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Valued Member
United States
452 Posts |
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Just curious how much more CAC would be used if it was open to all with no waiting lists. I speculate many more collectors would use the service if they could submit directly. I certainly would have when I looked into it. Their website has stated that "CAC is not accepting new Dealer or Collector Memberships at this time." since May 1st 2011. Is CAC processing the waiting list and allowing new members when it is their turn, before re-opening membership? Edited by AES
06/07/2019 09:47 am
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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Is CAC processing the waiting list and allowing new members when it is their turn, before re-opening membership? Membership is and has been open, you just have to call like I said. |
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Posted 06/04/2019 09:23 am
