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 Replies: 190 / Views: 24,722 |
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New Member
United States
22 Posts |
Re: China & fakes 1. The Chinese laws allow replication of ANY coin issued prior to (1950? or so - I don't remember the exact date. "ANY" coin includes Chinese coins and they have no compulsions whatsoever about coins of any other country. 2. Their infusion of new technology over the past decade or two has them now equipped with some of the finest machines available to copy and reproduce coins. (I have read where they even now reproduce proof quality coins and I would very much like to know more about this.) 3. Coins with painted finishes are especially vulnerable to replication. The design can be photographed and reproduced via a "silk screening" process that uses chemicals and light. Then there are machines which apply such designs directly onto the surfaces of the coins. Once you own the machines the process is easy and cheap. 4. There are also LASER devices which can "read" a coin's design 3-dimensionally without actually touching it. These designs can then be transferred via computer to produce dies for replicating the copied coin. 5. Two examples I own that help to illustrate the Chinese disregard for other countries' counterfeiting concerns are: a.) I bought a fake high grade (VF or so) 1894 Canada 50c from a Chinese ad on ebay ( ebay has long since banned these ads) that clearly showed a reproduced 1894 Can. 50c clearly stamped "replica" right across the face of the "coin". I bought this so I could see what a fake looks like. When I received the "coin" the Chinese had cleverly 'neglected' to stamp it "replica". (Probably because I am in the US and there would be less legal issues for fake Canada coins being handled in the US. Being so I'm sure the Chinese figured that I would be very tempted to buy more of same and pass them off as genuine.) The quality was fairly convincing but I did confirm that it was substantially under-weight. I noticed that it did ring when dropped on a table top so I inquired back to the vendor and found out its alloy included 50% silver. THE WHOLE IDEA HERE IS THAT THESE FAKES WERE MADE TO DECEIVE. b.) I later bought a 2012 $20 Canadian scalloped dragon from a Chinese vendor (on ebay - and I still see these occasionally) that was girdled by an ornate metallic gold-colored border. The coin is apparently dropped into the pre-formed border and then staked in place. This makes the overall diameter of the coin quite a bit larger. The coin I ordered was delivered in silk-covered box that had all the qualities and decoration of RCM products (even a COA) but this box was (had to be) larger to accommodate the larger diameter coin. In correspondence with one of the Canadian dragon coin designing firms we confirmed that this end-product was not produced by the RCM and, in fact, the person we contacted was going to report this to the RCM directly to be pursued as being a legal issue. The coin itself appears to be genuine but the border is definitely out-sourced and the packaging and/or the COA either faked or borrowed perhaps from packaging for the Canadian kilogram dragon coin. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3690 Posts |
Quote:I later bought a 2012 $20 Canadian scalloped dragon from a Chinese vendor (on ebay - and I still see these occasionally) that was girdled by an ornate metallic gold-colored border. The coin is apparently dropped into the pre-formed border and then staked in place. This makes the overall diameter of the coin quite a bit larger. The coin I ordered was delivered in silk-covered box that had all the qualities and decoration of RCM products (even a COA) but this box was (had to be) larger to accommodate the larger diameter coin. In correspondence with one of the Canadian dragon coin designing firms we confirmed that this end-product was not produced by the RCM and, in fact, the person we contacted was going to report this to the RCM directly to be pursued as being a legal issue. The coin itself appears to be genuine but the border is definitely out-sourced and the packaging and/or the COA either faked or borrowed perhaps from packaging for the Canadian kilogram dragon coin. You seem to be describing a coin that has been alleged to have been produced by the RCM for the Asian market. I say allegedly because more than one member on this forum has mentioned the existence of a special Asian market lotus coin ($15 though not $20) but I've never seen anything official from the RCM. We know that they have produced separate packaging for Asia for other coins. I believe this is the first time anyone has suggested that they did not produce the gold ringed version.  |
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Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts |
Yes I remember the lotus dragon as well. When I first saw it I contacted the seller, because I was genuinely interested in buying the coin. He had a picture of a receipt for it along with a RCM Chinese shopping bag. I have to admit it looked extreamly convincing. I didn't however buy it because in the end it just wouldn't be a finished or completed set with this odd coin out. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1354 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1823 Posts |
ebay will not remove them because he said they are fakes. Seller Notes:"material:Fine Silver Coin,coins silver cladstyle:  Canada $20 Fine Silver Coins - Aster with Venetian Glass Bumble Bee (2012) and Purple Coneflower with Venetian Glass Butterfly (2013)Low mintage - limited to 10,000 coins worldwide for eachThe second coin in a series,bumblebee, and the third coin, beautifully engraved and painted flower native to Canada.Read carefully: these coins copies, betting you should understand that buy copies
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1354 Posts |
They sure will remove them..... They are not allowed no matter if identified or not.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1354 Posts |
Go back and read this thread
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
attn: Yingyang The following is cut/pasted from ebay's policies: "Policy overview To help ensure buyer confidence in the stamps, currency, and coins listed on ebay, we've established a set of guidelines for our sellers to follow. These guidelines cover what can and can't be sold on ebay, and the requirements for certain listings. Most countries, including Canada, strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on ebay. We allow listings for replica stamps and non-Canadian paper money as long as you follow the policy guidelines. Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described. Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed." I don't know if you are the one with the items on ebay, but clearly, those coins with glass examples above fall under the category 'copies' and are NOT permitted on ebay. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
I also reported the seller.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Laser optic profiling is used to create a model, and that is used as a program for cutting a new die by the spark erosion process.
This method has been used to manufacture dies for the reproduction ancient and modern coins for about 10 years. With minor hand working of the dies, near perfect fakes can be produced.
I have seen an example of a rare date fake 10 dollar gold eagle made this way, from metal recycled from a low grade common date eagle, so the coinage alloy in not only perfect, it is genuine as well. The Chinese have been known to use coinage presses, in association with this process.
Even so, an experienced eye can still pick most of these types of fakes, but the novice doesn't stand a chance.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
How many people here have written a letter to the RCM demanding that they assist in fighting the NCLT counterfeits? ebay has listened and has made an effort. Has the RCM? |
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
When I was living in Alberta, I wrote a letter to my MP... never heard back... Have you thought about a petition that could circulate at coin shows? An official document with a few thousand signatures might get the RCM's or Minister of Finance's attention... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
I have the letter from Ian Bennett responding to me. He stated that "The RCM works hand in hand with the RCMP to prevent and educate about counterfeiting." Sgt. Tony only laughed when I asked him about it, and Bennett provided a link to the RCMP website which are ALL my images........... That was the response I got when I wrote the Prime Minister. hmmmmmmm |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1751 Posts |
I just received my first fake silver coin. I love my color wildlife bullion. I have several of these. So I was excited when I found a 2013 color bison for $45. I just opened it, the color is off being totally black, with a kind of color sparkle effect. When I took it out of it's capsule, it fell, landing with a clunk, instead of a ring. Also the coin came with a capsule and no collector box & COA. I need to figure out how to proceed. I had no idea fakes of these existed. When I can figure out how to post pics I will do so. I'd appreciate if anyone can provide me with more info on these particular fakes. Here's the auction # 331171776995Edited by pocket change 50
04/23/2014 7:08 pm
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
I'm surprised to see that the seller had only one 'neutral'(not arrived, and refunded purchase price) with the remainder of feed back as positive, and always '5 stars'. Looking forward to your pictures to check it out. I kind of doubt with over 1300 sales he intentionally sold a fake coin with lots of his other coins 'certified'.
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Replies: 190 / Views: 24,722 |
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Posted 03/21/2014 11:28 am
