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How Many VAMs Are There?

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 Posted 09/09/2010  3:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add stevangolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
There seems to be an infinite number of VAMs, does every variation no matter how slight have a VAM attributed to it? Where is the line drawn between a VAM and a really tiny defect?
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Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your first question: How many vams are there? Answer: There are over three thousand plus vams and counting.
Are there an infinite number? Answer: No, there is a finite number, we just don't know what that number is.

Does every variation no matter how slight have a VAM attributted to it? Answer: No
Where is the line drawn? Answer: This is an excerpt from Leroy Van Allen, father of the VAM hobby.

GUIDELINES FOR THINGS LISTED AS DIE VARIETIES



By Leroy Van Allen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

•Die doubling on the devices, letters stars and date digits have to be readily visible using a 7X or 10X hand magnifying glass that the average collector uses at coin shows and shops when searching for die varieties. A 20X or 30X stereo microscope is useful to check die doubling but not reason enough to list doubling unless visible with hand magnifying glass.Die
•Slight die doubling on a few obverse stars or a few reverse wreath leaves are generally too minor to list by themselves as they are fairly common. Doubling has to be on all left or right stars to list or on most of left or right wreath leaf clusters to list.
•Die chips, breaks, scratches & gouges have to be readily visible to the naked eye to list. Tiny die chips are very common as dies wore out from use. Likewise, die breaks to be listed have to wide & high chunks out of the die and visible to the naked eye and not just thin shallow die cracks. Thin, shallow die cracks are extremely common as dies wore out & we don't list them.
•Scratches are fairly thin and high lines while gouges are wide and high bars. They have to be long enough to be readily visible to the naked eye.
•Scratches and gouges in the denticles are generally not listed because they are well hidden and not visible to the naked eye.
•Denticles, date and stars that have shiny edges that have been pushed in and indented occur when the coin was struck and then pushed out of the collar, or die slid sideways during striking of a coin. A striking error that we don't list - we only list die varieties.
•Flat, shiny, top doubling on edges of obverse or reverse motto or legend letters or date and stars is from Machine Doubling. It occurs when there is looseness in the coin press mechanism and dies bounce slightly during the striking of the coin. It is most common on the reverse for the Morgan dollar and on the obverse for the Peace dollar. Machine Doubling tends to reduce the original design. Die doubling has dull, rounded surfaces. It enlarges the original design. Machine Doubling isn't listed since it isn't a die variety.
•Tiny thin, short raised lines on the device not visible to the naked eye aren't something listed separately. They might be useful as a die marker however, if needed.
•Fine thin polishing lines in Liberty's head, on the eagle, or wreaths are extremely common on Morgan dollars and are generally not visible to the naked eye. Therefore, they aren't something that is listed. Only list those that are unusually heavy & thick. Sometimes used as die markers however.
•Polishing lines have to be over much of the fields and visible to the naked eye or extremely bold in the device to list. Isolated die polishing lines in fields aren't listed as die varieties by themselves. Can be used as die markers if needed.
•Polishing roughness in wreath bow & leaves is also very common and generally not visible to the naked eye as they are well hidden. So it isn't listed. Polishing roughness can occur around the legend letters causing a rough outline and parts of the letters that don't follow the letters exactly. It isn't die doubling, which follows the letter shape exactly. Generally, the polishing roughness around the letters is not listed unless it is very severe.
•Rim Cud die breaks that don't extend through the denticles into the field aren't listed. Retained Cuds can be listed and are formed when a die crack extends rim to rim with some displacement of the field.
•A displaced field die break can be listed if a die crack has the adjacent field raised or tilted to form a different angle of the flat field visible to the naked eye.
•Missing design elements can be listed from over polishing if visible to the naked eye.
•Common die clash marks that aren't letters aren't listed (clash marks with no letter transfer). Only clashed letters on obverse and reverse are listed. An exception is on Peace dollars that can have a clashed spike up from the eagles' right shoulder from the obverse back of Liberty's head and neck. Shorter single spikes aren't listed unless they are long enough to reach UN. Double and triple clashed spikes are listed.

To your unasked question. Please explain some grey areas. For example a (any date Morgan) is listed as a VAM 1 because there are no distinquishing features. The coin has a clash episode. does this change the designation? Answer: Only if there is letter transfer. So now the coin becomes VAM 1 A clashed letter.

After repeated strikings the clashed letter fades away. What is it called then? Answer. It reverts back to VAM 1. What is interesting to note here, is now you have a VAM 1 that is non clashed or clashed. Still a VAM 1. What happens if in addition VAM 1 has a lot of cracks on it too small to list? Still a VAM 1 but a more interesting coin. I hope this helps.
Edited by Ozland
09/09/2010 7:53 pm
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MorgansRmine's Avatar
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1219 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  4:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MorgansRmine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stevan, go to a site, "Vamworld.com" and click on 'Vams by date' on the left side of the page. It lists every year for Morgan and Peace dollars coined. The Vams are numbered for each year and mint. The total number of Vams changes almost daily as new Vams are added and duplicates of the same VAM are deleted. Happy counting.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The numbers there are incomplete due to the fact not all discoveries, revisions or deletions are reported. Mr. Van Allen puts out a supplement every year with all of the data.
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 Posted 09/09/2010  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know about Stevan, but that clears up an awful lot for me, and explains why this is all so confusing.
Edited by zeewool
09/09/2010 6:34 pm
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Ozland's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 09/09/2010  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It sure helps to know the guidelines. As a point of interest, other than all of the iterations of the 1878 Philadelphia Morgans, which have been the most studied, only the 1878-CC series (Book written by John Robrets)and

the 1902-O and now 1904-O series (by Alan Scott) have been studied in totality.

Brian Raines is working on a book for the 1879-S. Other research have primarily focused on a particular VAM date such as 1882-CC VAM 2 and all of its iterations, or 1886-O VAM 11.

Edited by Ozland
09/09/2010 6:55 pm
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carmykle's Avatar
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 Posted 09/09/2010  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How many stars in the night sky?
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 Posted 09/09/2010  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many stars in the night sky?


I'm with you on that one Mike....How many grains of sand on the beach?

I honestly don't think that anyone has the slightest (not even the faintest) idea of how many there are. The number of vams identified as such may have a figure, but how many dies are indistinguishable from the next ten? Of the 3000+ known (or perceived as known), there could be an equal number that are now listed as this infamous vam-1, or unlistable vams. I believe that there are also more than just a couple of listed vams that are in actuality the same die pair. The sheer number of dies coupled with the astronomical possibilities of pairing combinations make the job of placing even a ball park figure on total vams virtually impossible.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  7:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unknown is correct. What percentage of the extant Morgan dollar or Peace dollar have been catalogued?

This is why the term 'relative rarity' is so important.
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 Posted 09/09/2010  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought that I understood the term 'relative rarity', but evidently I don't.

Could you please define it in a maximum of one or two sentences?
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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3076 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I could be wrong, but relative rarity to me means "appeared rarity, an assumed number of said VAM"..however with any year and variety,Not all of the surviving coins have been VAMMED or examined/identified....Those are ratings are an assumed quantify that could have been produced...Not a FACTUAL number known in existence....some years or vams have been rated lower but few are even known to exist.....Rarity is relative to the actual number known at this time, and could change as more examples are found, or in some cases they are never found, that R5 common rating would be far off from the actual number ...rarity is relative at this point..or should we say the rarity is irrevelent at this point...
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You have just found the basis for hype. Dealers can now sell a coin for more money because of its percived rarity. If it is rare, it is worth more. If it is relatively rare it is still worth more. Who is going to know any different? Only time will be the determinant, and if more are found? so what? At the time of sale, it was percieved rare!

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 Posted 09/09/2010  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see.
Edited by zeewool
09/10/2010 08:28 am
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 09/09/2010  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks OZ, I always thought the rarity scale was just that...A preconceived indicator of how many are really out there........as the laws of supply and demand will directly apply to this point......the "HOT POTATO" simply means, market them while you can...as time goes by.....those "perceived" rarities may truly be rare until a roll shows up...the thing is.....as we collect our trinkets now...for trinkets or for the love of the collection, as I like to view it......Rarity does get in the way.....If I had money perhaps I would view things differently...cashing in on the perceived values....but even If I did,
I would rather chase the game than to think its all about money.
For example:...some in the 60's thought the 1903(hope I remember this correctly) was a $1000 dollar coin.......then many were released and they became common , not worth the money they spent...

this is the time when the economy is down. Its a buyers market if you take the time to learn "WHAT IS WHAT" or BUY from the hype..I saw today a very common coin listing for over $1,000 buy it now.....it only takes one who doesn't know, for them to rape a profit, for the rest of us...we are hoping there is honesty within the system(I am a hopeless romantic)...
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2010  01:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Relative rarity" means, "we don't really have even the right to have a clue yet, draw your own conclusions, as for us we're throwing darts blindfolded."
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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2010  01:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave....I do think your right, and as Zee says...we haven't a clue on the actual numbers....but I don't think. Assuming the negative possibilities is rediculous in condemning the VAM principle...its obvious in all other coinage,,where they are listed as errors.....and I might add accepted. WHY WILL WE not talk about it?
are there so few of us who will speak? are there only a few who will speak out of there questionings and the rest following sheep?
Wake up people.....its about understanding.....not about numbers....If all you want is numbers, then go a way....there is much to learn and your not paying college prices...and you can question...FOR FREE......
but if you feel you need to PAY.. I can hook you up....for the rest of us inquiring minds we will ask for "FREE" our questions to those of half whit, that might know more than we do....
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