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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,783 |
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Valued Member
Canada
178 Posts |
Poll Question
I'm surprised no one has started a topic on this yet. This company called Planetary Resources was started a few years ago and was in the news yesterday. They have plans to mine asteroids for precious metals, namely gold and metals from the platinum group. There are lots of news stories about this company online, here's a link to one: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...-miners?liteWhat would happen to the prices of precious metals if we could suddenly obtain tons of them from asteroids and bring them back to Earth successfully? Question: When will mining asteroids become economically and scientifically feasible?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
The biggest hurdle isn't technical, it's legal. The Outer Space Treaty of 1967 specifically prevents any signatory nation from claiming *anything* for exclusive use beyond the Earth. Without the ability to lay claim to real property in space, you can't have mining rights. And without mining rights, all of the technology in the world won't get this business venture off the ground.
I suspect lawyers are already working on this problem. Assuming there is a legal remedy, it'll probably take a decade to sort things out and amend the treaty appropriately.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Quote: The Outer Space Treaty of 1967 specifically prevents any signatory nation from claiming *anything* for exclusive use beyond the Earth. Does that also apply to private entities who did not sign the treaty? Also, mining asteroids would be a very energy intensive endeavor. They are WAY out there and it would be quite a trip to get there, explore for resources, build the infrastructure necessary for exploiting them, and shipping them back to Earth. It would be HUGELY more energy efficient to do this on the moon. Not only is it MUCH closer to the Earth, there is enough solar energy available to fuel much of the necessary infrastructure. It also has a low but useful gravity, which is handy in most industrial operations... when you put something somewhere, it tends to stay there and you can pour things, unlike in the asteroid belt where both gravity and solar energy are minimal. Given that the moon is only about 1/6 the size of the Earth but that it is 100% dry land and not 3/4 covered by oceans, it is only about 1/3 smaller than the Earth. That makes for a lot of fresh territory to explore and develop. If the theory that the moon was once a part of the Earth turns out to be true, then the moon will have all of the same materials that the Earth has including water, oxygen, and useful metals.
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Valued Member
United States
309 Posts |
I put never...not because that we won't be able to do it in 5, 10, 15, 25 years, but because the world is going to end in December...hence, we won't be able to do it.  ...never used that smiley before. :-)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
Quote: Does that also apply to private entities who did not sign the treaty? That's the key question that will need to be answered. I'm also not sure what strategy would be used to determine which asteroids would be most suitable for mining. Planetary Resources is supposedly sending up a space-based telescope for long range surveying. Even if they find "pay dirt", that's just the beginning since the logistics of exploitation will be determined largely by the asteroid's orbit around the sun and the frequency of it's closest convergence with Earth's orbit to facilitate transfer of materials back to Earth at minimal cost. There are a number of "near Earth asteroids" that likely will be the first candidates for closer scrutiny. I do think the Moon was intentionally (and in my opinion wisely) omitted as a candidate for exploitation. The Moon and Antarctica are the two most (so far "peacefully") contested and politically sensitive land areas in modern human history. By targeting remote and anonymous space objects like asteroids, I suspect Planetary Resources hopes to minimize any political fallout from their proposed activities.
Edited by coinwatch 04/25/2012 7:34 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
There will ALWAYS be cheaper ways to obtain mineral recources from Earth bound sources than asteroids.
The cost of putting anything into orbit per pound has come down by a huge amount, but is still hugely expensive. Getting to, extracting mineral resources from asteroids, AND returning them to Earth will be WAY more expensive.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
598 Posts |
... yes, yes, interesting, very interesting, but I thought your Poll would be asking "What Will Happen to Precious Metal Prices With Success of Asteroid Mining". What I would do  , is find a small worthwhile mineable(?) body, let gravity get it close as possible to earth, then get it into as close an orbit as possible, and send the machine scraped high grade to earth... rockets and chutes perhaps(?)... to expend as little as possible outside earth's surface.  And really, you'd hafta get some real high grade ore to make this worthwhile... like an 18kt asteroid? Or, could you imagine the premium you might hafta pay on a bullion round from Xerces Sata Mi  (< I made that up so don't harsh me... also hockey intermission) 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1454 Posts |
CW, I always understood the 1967 treaty as applying only to countries, not corporations, so I doubt there is a legal problem with space-based mining ops, just a technical one. If they ever build the space bridge using nano-tubes, the cost of getting into orbit will go way down. Another company is attempting to shoot cargo into orbit (see link below), which they claim will also make space commerce more affordable. An off-world colony would also do the trick, since all the building materials, along with water for fuel, I believe, are readily available at the lunar poles. We'll get there someday. But it has to be cost effective for a private company, of course. http://phys.org/news183023838.html
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
I remember seeing airbags in cats as new tech in the late 60s - when was it they FINALLY got them into cars? The 90's? The problem is not in the company - its in the red tape that results when regulations get in the way. The regulations are necessary for safety, the red tape and time for processing is always insane.
I cannot forsee PM prices really being affected for along time. Even at that - might there be a "fad" for "original earth gold" vs "ET gold?"
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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Moderator
 Australia
16834 Posts |
The topic has been discussed on the forum before, here and here. I ticked "over 25 years". Even this company's prospectus puts the precious metal mining timetable at "eventually". Using current and forseeable advances in technology, mining asteroids is only economically viable if the price of the metal being extracted is higher than $25,000 to $50,000 per ounce. It's cheaper than nuclear transmutation by an order of magnitude, but seawater extraction is cheaper. As several have pointed out, the biggest expense is incurred when you leave Earth and attempt to return. Asteroid mining will be much more viable once there are space-based industries capable of launching their own mining missions and enough people permanently living in space to sell the metal to. Of course, if 99% of the minerals mined in space stay up in space, then that won't affect supply and demand (and therefore price) down here on Earth. Quote:Quote: Does that also apply to private entities who did not sign the treaty? That's the key question that will need to be answered. The Treaty itself answers this. Article VII of the Treaty stipulates: Quote: States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are carried on in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties to the Treaty participating in such organization. So any corporation operating in space needs a signatory government to look over its shoulder approving (and taking responsibility for) everything it does. A problem comes about only if a transnational corporation nominally based in a non-Treaty-signatory country were to try to enter the fray. And I think the rest of the international community would lean heavily on any non-signatory nation trying to open up a spaceport on its territory to sign the Treaty. Of course, most observers think the Treaty is pie-in-the-sky idealism that will go out the window and be replaced with something much more pragmatic as soon as enough countries and corporations think they can make enough money from space.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
What we may not conceive as possible today with the current levels of tech, may be very possible in say 500 to 1000 to 10,000 years down the road, IF mankind can survive an avoid an quickly recover from the enviable natural disasters that occur every 100 thousand years or so.....
I voted 25 years or later as I figure most would and indeed it was in the lead, but was surprised to see 7 vote never. Again our minds can't even conceive of new tech with possible low cost sources of energy in the future, which very could make it feasible....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
Quote: There will ALWAYS be cheaper ways to obtain mineral recources from Earth bound sources than asteroids. Financial and political costs for terrestrial PM extraction and refining are going up all the time. As for the Planetary Resources project, assuming no break through technology appears, the high cost of lifting tons of equipment into Earth orbit can be mitigated through one simple overriding philosophy: re-usability. Yes, lifting anything out of Earth's gravity well is costly. However, once it's up there, you're good to go. Simple prefab frameworks can be boosted and assembled in orbit. In fact, even upper stage rocket hulls could be reused. Remember, they're not building the ISS or even the much more primitive "Skylab" of the 1970s. Also, not having to worry about a human crew saves loads of weight and avoids lots of technical hurdles. Think of these vehicles as ore hauling UAVs. This seems very doable using existing technology.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
Quote: I always understood the 1967 treaty as applying only to countries, not corporations, so I doubt there is a legal problem with space-based mining ops, just a technical one. I personally would agree. However, I'm not so sure any of the other spacefaring nations would accept the idea that an "American" corporation was not operating with the express permission if not out-right control of the federal government. Also, the idea of any extra-governmental entity being able to circumvent international treaties will also be extremely unpopular with less trusting nations. From a business perspective, this all seems so unnecessary. However, it's easy to forget that the world as a whole is not a very pro-business place. Just my opinion. [Update]: Sap, somehow I missed your excellent and detailed comments. Thanks for clarifying.
Edited by coinwatch 04/25/2012 11:45 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
The energy costs of getting things out of Earth's gravity well are never going to make it viable to mine asteroids for use on Earth. It's more than just technical problems, it's basic physics. If some scientific advancement makes energy incredibly cheap, the economic boon of cheap energy would make mining asteroids moot.
It might make sense to mine asteroids for metals which would be used in space, as it may be cheaper than sending them up from Earth, but that only starts making sense when you have a permanent or semi-permanent population in space, which is in the 50+ year time frame.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
I'm enjoying and appreciating the perspectives being shared on this topic. However, I'm not sure I agree that we have to have space colonies to benefit from asteroid mining.
We keep dwelling on the initial heavy lift costs, but once paid that expense is done. Sure, equipment breaks down and repair and refit are part of fleet maintenance whether on Earth or in space. And yes, lifting fuel and other necessary consumables will represent an ongoing cost.
However, from then on, gravity becomes an ally instead of a liability. Because of their size, asteroids have minimal gravity and escape velocity is a minuscule fraction of what it is on Earth. Once a cargo vehicle returns to Earth, the semi-processed ore(s) can be dropped from orbit for collection at suitably remote and safe recover sites. The process begins again by refueling and replenishment and sending the ore carrier UAVs back to the mining site. And, to be clear, since the same vehicles are already in orbit, there's no heavy lift cost involved.
If any of this has to wait for human settlements in space, none of this will happen. It's like the early frontier days; if French fur trappers hadn't lead the way by penetrating the deep interior of a largely unknown North American continent, the world we know today might be very different place.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Quote: I do think the Moon was intentionally (and in my opinion wisely) omitted as a candidate for exploitation. The Moon and Antarctica are the two most (so far "peacefully") contested and politically sensitive land areas in modern human history. By targeting remote and anonymous space objects like asteroids, I suspect Planetary Resources hopes to minimize any political fallout from their proposed activities. You can pretty much bet money that if anything really vital to humanity is discovered in either of those locations, so sort of an agreement will come to pass at some point that will allow those resources to be developed. What gets me about some of these treaties is that they give those who have zero chance of ever obtaining those resources a voice in how they will or will not be developed. Like some little land-locked Podunk country being involved in the Law of the Seas Treaty. Only those who can get these resources should be able to make the critical decisions concerning them, IMHO. If they want to create a fund where others can share in some of the profits, fine. But the important decisions should be executed by those who can deliver the goods.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,783 |
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