1789 8 Reales

Thanks.

Looks like we have some diagonal lines again on the rim ... :)

Filip you said





If 95 out of 100 coin dealers say a coin is real - is it GENUINE? How many wrong OPINIONS does it take to disprove a scientific fact.

When a good forger sends his work to PGCS and they encapsulate it - does the Fake become Genuine by magic?

Mark Hofmann who was likely the best US forger of coins ever known said so. He said once his work was encapsulated it WAS REAL.

I do not believe that.

No gold in 1789 silver refined in Mexico means FAKE. Museum curators have known that for years.

I can not imagine being as trusting of "experts" who rely on non-scientific data.

Included in that quote is what I would call your world view or perspective -




In your world the reality of sales numbers can justify ignoring scientifically proven theory. If it looks real, if the majority of people believe it is real and it sells as real it is real.

That is how the Chinese were tricked into believing these coins were real in the first place.

Is this what Numismatics has come to? - That facts of science can be ignored when they don't match sales results?

I think we have a serious difference in philosophy. I believe a coin can only be Genuine if it was made in 1789. So if science says it is not made in 1789 because it lacks Au and Pt - it is NOT genuine. I do not care if it sells or not.

I just realized that there are a couple comments made by parties other than Filip which raised questions that have not been addressed.

MathieuMa you seemed to have the most - you said




The silver level used in the portrait 8R series was tweaked by the Spanish but the modification was actually noticed by the US mint assayers. A 1-3% alteration in standard silver was enough for the assayers to recommend not allowing deficient coins to circulate in the US. The mint report on the Chihuahua cast War time issues actually advised buying them in large lots for reclamation because they were worth about 3 cents each too much because of rough assay methods.

In the period before 1840, the US mint noted NO official mint issued 8Rs that were debased in the coin shipments coming from Mexico City. The US mint did note that Bolivia, Peru and some of the branch mints in Mexico were making unsuitable coins but NEVER MEXICO CITY.

The stories of seriously debased 8Rs coming from Mexico City is an Urban myth that has lived far too long. It was and is a sales pitch to sell bogus coins as real. Check the facts yourself most of the mint reports are on line under US government.

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To Henry and others:

I know XRF is a relatively new technology. I first had access in 1999 to an XRF machine in a Nuclear Power plant in New England. A good friend was in charge of the lab at that facility and used XRF to test in line filters for metal particles that did not belong at 10 ppm level. He asked me to help with his calibration tests.

The beauty of XRF is in the consistency of results that can be achieved. I started testing Cap and Ray 8 reales because they are my favorites. I tested Guanajuato and Zacatecas coins extensively. A drill hole is not needed in many cases to look inside a coin - they have rim nicks and test cuts.

For instance - the coin we have been discussing has an edge test cut. It is a huge hole that penetrates to the core metal. PERFECT spot for running a string of point tests INTO the core. It will prove that the amount of silver migration from the core to the surface is normally minimal - well under 1%. Surface enrichment occurs, that is true, but it is a very slow process and this coin is certainly not porous at the surface indicative of serious corrosion.

I completely understand people like you Henry being reluctant because you do not understand how it works. The physics involved are complex and a well trained laboratory is the only place that can produce reliable results.

I presume that most of you heard that NGC has actually opened a testing lab (or it has contracted testing with one) so that it can offer XRF verification services on medals.

Why is that being done? Because experience has shown that the "experts" are terrible at estimating what an alloy is based on appearance. They are sure they know a coin is brass or bronze and people accept their opinions but they are wrong most of the time.

XRF can not be fooled when done right. It does not get fooled by color. It does not get fooled by the "value" of the coin. It does not get fooled by assumption, opinions or even theories. It provides demonstrable and repeatable results the essence of scientific proof.

You can reject science. People reject what they do not understand quite often. But the people on the forum I thought were looking for genuine answers not people talking through their hats. (Apologies to any LDS I mean no slur).

For years, German Silver (GS) has been mentioned as being used for Colonial Forgeries. It was written into books by very learned experts. The experts of that time all said GS was used. That was their opinion. They held this opinion even though the technology to make GS did not exist until about 1830. Well John Lorenzo has tested a lot of Counterfeits that were supposedly made with GS but the fact of the matter is that it didn't happen. The VAST majority of cases prove by XRF that the counterfeits are not actually GS. They are copper nickel alloys that look like GS. Only late date (post 1830) counterfeits have been verified to contain GS.

So you can keep believing experts who have opinions or you can start looking for scientific facts. You can keep counterfeits in your collection and buy and sell them as if they were real. Be my guest. I am only trying to teach what I have learned over many years of experiment and testing.

But if you decide to ignore scientific fact - who are you really fooling?

Numismat

If you locate the two circles then look at the position of the next segments to the right and left on both coins there is a pattern,

To the right down down and to the right up up exactly matching how much up and how much doen.

This does not happen on genuine coins that two even from the same edger have IDENTICAL joints where the two dies just happen to meet.

The edger is a random process not as perfect as these two.

jfansch I would be interested in seeing clearer pictures at some time. There are no diagonal cuts and there appear to be actual overlaps in the pattern but it is not clear enough to be certain. I take it from your description that you can see an actual overlap which I do NOT see on the other two coins.

Edited to clarify my question: Are you reporting two overlaps at 180 degrees of the same length or one overlap and one matched join?

Every one please forgive the long off the topic post

I really think there are some cultural differences coming into play here. Most English speaking anglo-saxons aren't familiar with the Viennese/Austrian directness, I know my first experience of it 13 years ago left me thinking what in the world had I done wrong...it was only later I realized that the people who I thought I had offended would have been mortified to think I had misunderstood them. Furthermore the approach to Coins is different.

{I don't want to offend any one but just want to highlight the differences}. Most American coin collectors will proudly call themselves Numismatists. I on the other hand in Europe will feel a fraud if I called my self a Numismatist the most I will allow myself is to say I am a student of Numismatics...the reason being in Europe particularly Austria a numismatist is some one with a masters degree in the subject. That person will have Latin and ancient Greek language skills.

The other major difference is European collectors don't usually have the issues with counterfeits that American collectors experience. the European coin market is much more mature( in some respects) than the American. Most coin collectors by necessity have to develop the skills to identify coins themselves. the american market in comparison is typified by the use of TPGs. the TPGs have made collecting coins more accessible but at the same time, compared to Europe, have dumbed down coin collecting.

I recall with shock when Barbara Gregory asked me if a coin had been authenticated...it was so natural for her but so foreign to me. Of Course the coin was Authentic..but the USA is the predominant marketfor the fakes. Mainland Europe has until recently had extremely strong( in comparison to the USA) consumer law. If a coin is proved a fake most European dealers are required to take it back refunding the origional purchase price. {HENCE the problems American TPGs face trying to penetrate the European market).


What I have seen in the conversation so far is a collision between the American approach and The European neither approach is wrong only different. CoinWorld TV Swamper Bob has a real advantage through family knowledge..that knowledge being of USA production of Spanish dollars( Hence I really want to see his book. Also Swamper Bob is producing a book oriented to a market that first asks "is it genuine"? Yes in Europe that question is asked but its not the first question! Swamperbob I have the impression Coinworldtv's reaction what I would expect of a European mainland dealer when faced with a challenge to the authenticity of the coins the sell...for them it is a very personal challenge to their professional standing and skills.

I don't want to belabor the point but I think the conversation has been coming from different view points and offence has been percieved unnecessarily.