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 Replies: 49 / Views: 7,432 |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
what you write shows that there is a mystery here, but it didn't address my point! He did it just may not be what you were hoping to hear. The basic point is theres a reason why this coin isn't in a slab while others are. The most likely conclusion is that it has no chance of getting a 66 and he knows it. Hes dealt with PCGS extensively from what he sells and even if he feels they couldnt do it NGC has graded those before. A 50 dollar sign up fee is nothing for a 5 figure coin with a potential difference of 10s of thousands. If he thought it could get that itd be on the next flight out to be graded. Youre buying something in the range that makes you a buyer who doesn't grow on trees, as such youre able to ask for special treatment. What I would do is tell him you want to buy the coin but that you want it slabbed by PCGS or NGC before you do to be safe. If it comes back as a proof in an agreed upon grade range youll buy it. However, if it comes back as not a proof or a details coin or a significantly lower grade than you reserve the right to walk away or to negotiate for a new price. If hes confident in the coin he shouldnt have a problem with this. If he knows hes pulling a fast one expect to get significant resistance or an outright no. Edited by basebal21
02/23/2014 7:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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I suppose my original question was designed to ask whether you can simply get a certificate for a coin, the way you can with stamps (which, no matter how valuable they are, don't get 'slabbed'.) To do that would be a totally wasted exercise if the coin wasn't isolated in a tamper proof slab because the certificate could be transferred at whim to any other coin. This is WHY graded coins are slabbed, to prevent dodgy individuals transferring the provenance to a different coin  ALL your questions HAVE been answered , Maybe not the answers you wanted but they have been answered OK  |
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Valued Member
 Australia
117 Posts |
"He did it just may not be what you were hoping to hear." No, he didn't. I'm raising the question as to whether PCGS is competent to authenticate such coins. Who are these people anyway? The list of experts available on their website shows not one person with expertise in Australian coins and does not say who they use to certify Australian coins. http://www.pcgs.com/experts.htmlEdited by jimjamtwo
02/23/2014 8:55 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Actually he did as has trout. The pcgs people are the same people youre dealer you linked feels are competent enough to grade the 100k+ of Australian coins he currently has listed in the slabs. Theyre all people without a personal interest in the coins value which the dealer does not have.
It seems pretty obvious at this point youre just looking for everyone to say go for it without pointing out the numerous red flags. So really at this point its your money if you really want it get it, the rest of us have expressed out opinions as to how wise that would be but at the end of the day its your money
Edited by basebal21
02/23/2014 10:03 pm
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Valued Member
Australia
117 Posts |
basebal21, you have no idea what I'm getting at. What I am getting at is that the people who authenticate Australian coins for the PCGS are probably just people like Andrew Crellin (spelling?). Unless we know who they are, we're not in a position to make any claims about their alleged disinteredness. You say 'they all have a bio listed.' Where?
I would be interested in seeing if any of their names belong to the very short list of people who know anything about the early (i.e., precommercial) proofs - and there are only a handful.
Edited by jimjamtwo
02/23/2014 9:57 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
We know for sure they have no financial interest because they arent allowed to grade their own inventory. If its not theirs they have no incentive to juice it up. They dont list their actual graders online as far as I know, the majority of people on that list arent graders for them just people they may contact from time to time or who may act as consultants for the direction of the company. Its basically like their board of directors with I believe only two people on that list actually working at PCGS everyday from a quick skim of it. A coin with that potential value would get the full attention of the more experienced people there and anyone they needed to contact if necessary, it wouldnt just be passed off to a grading team that does bulk ASE grading. But your still missing the point. NCG has already graded these exact coins before just as PCGS has graded other dates of those types of proofs like Trout mentioned. Theres a reason why a dealer with a couple hundred thousand worth of slabbed coins hasnt felt the need to put the coin that would benefit the most from it into a slab. I apologize if it was blunt in the last response but it comes across like youre looking for any excuse not to question the dealer with the coin and make excuses for why its raw instead of paying attention to the warning signs |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
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Theres a reason why a dealer with a couple hundred thousand worth of slabbed coins hasnt felt the need to put the coin that would benefit the most from it into a slab. Wow! baseball, you are usually clear.... ....this time crystal! |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
What is your agenda here? Are you hoping to discredit PCGS in case your coin comes back in a boddybag  From the single image you supplied of your coin I would hazard to guess that if is in fact a proof coin it is an "Impaired" proof. Far too bashed about to be uncirculated and certainly NOT "Cabinet Rub" IMHO. The "Red Herring" you put in this thread about Andre . threw me off for a while (I have had contact with Andrew and know exactly why the coin is still Raw)But I am now back on track. Your words describing your coin (Proof/Specimen)lead me to believe that you have NO provenance for this coin and are speculating about it being a proof or specimen coin. How about a couple of good images of the obverse and reverse (The entire coin this time) and my "Learned colleagues" will endeavor to ascertain weather it is a proof/specimen coin or not How does that suit you ? We have members on this site that are highly skilled and knowledgeable regarding Australian pre decimal copper coins and best of all their opinions are given freely and without bias   |
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Valued Member
Australia
117 Posts |
trout1105, you wrote "I have had contact with Andrew and know exactly why the coin is still Raw."
Please enlighten us! That is the question - not the status of my own coin - that has come to dominate this thread.
In any case, the argument was about not whether MY coin is a proof but whether the two coins being sold for very high sums - which, I have to say, are absolutely identical to mine in every sense except condition - were polished or not. I haven't seen anywhere your admission that you were wrong.
Or do you still think that the two coins are simply ordinary pennies that have been polished?
Edited by jimjamtwo
02/23/2014 10:44 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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I haven't seen anywhere your admission that you were wrong.
That is because there is NO evidence that I am wrong And as far as enlightening you regarding Andre ., Why don't you ask him yourself . Edited by trout1105
02/23/2014 10:52 pm
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Valued Member
Australia
117 Posts |
So you still believe that Andrew's coins are simply ordinary pennies that have been polished?
And if you have had contact with Andrew and you know the answer to the question that has set this thread on fire, I'm astonished that you're withholding it.
It seems to me that you are being evasive about both these issues for reasons that we can only guess at.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
I am sorry jimmyjammy But there is NOWHERE in this thread that I called the 1949 1/2d a polished ORDINARY coin. I did say that IMHO it had been cleaned and I intend to stand by that opinion OK. The original thread was about YOUR coin and not Andre .. What He told me in a PRIVATE email was in confidence and I respect the man enough to keep that confidence and as the information has absolutely NOTHING to do with your coin I think it is irrelevant . Like I said ask the bloke yourself if you really want to know. As far as being "Evasive" I imagine that this term would apply to you regarding the original post about your coin. Post a thread in the Australian Grading section with good images and you should get a definitive answer as to the grade and type of your penny  |
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Valued Member
Australia
117 Posts |
trout1105, I've noticed that on many online forums some people like to make the thread into something other than what it was originally. This thread did not begin as a 'show and tell.' I only wanted to know whether, if I did manage to have my coin certified as what I think it is (a proof), it would have to be slabbed. I do not want it slabbed. I hate slabs. From what I've learned here, the wisest strategy would be not to have it certified and slabbed until I don't want it anymore and am looking at selling it. I also learned that I can still take care of it without having it slabbed. This was very good news to me. I did not come here asking the forum members to verify the status of my coin. But for some reason you wanted to change the thread into a debate over the status of my coin. Then, to make it worse, you try and make it look like I'm being shifty because I do not want to go down the path that you seem resolved to set this thread on! Yet the shiftiness that strikes me is the refusal to answer the question that concerns most people who've taken part in this thread: why Andrew hasn't had the two coins in question authenticated and slabbed. So who's got the mysterious agenda?
Edited by jimjamtwo
02/23/2014 11:58 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
One of the interesting things about a "1952 proof or specimen (Australian) penny" is that that even the most competent of Australian numismatic auctioneers are likely to describe them as such in auction lot descriptions. The difference is next to zero, which leaves the auctioneer no choice, but to describe fairly.
That being the case, I seriously doubt that NGC or PCGS would be able to differentiate them with 100% certainty, either.
That leads me back to the suggestion that an Australian auctioneer of highest reputation, such as Noble or Downies, could be approached for an opinion, and left at that.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
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Yet the shiftiness that strikes me is the refusal to answer the question that concerns most people who've taken part in this thread: why Andrew hasn't had the two coins in question authenticated and slabbed. So who's got the mysterious agenda?
I have emailed the other relevant posters in this thread regarding the 1949 coin. The reason I refuse to tell you is because I simply don't want to. NO mysterious agenda whatsoever , simply a case of you rubbing me up the wrong way OK  |
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Posted 02/23/2014 7:34 pm
