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Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
There is no need to establish a pattern or even to prove intent if an item is misrepresented. The only caveat is that in order to make a claim after the sale/date of auction, evidence will be required to back up the claim.

So your position is that every typographical error in a catalog is a case of fraud?

quote:
The buyer's presence or absence is immaterial.

No, because normally you can't make auction sales where the buyer has not had a chance to examine the merchandise an AS IS sale. The return time may be short but there is usually a procedure for contesting the sale. This is not usually the case for people who are present at the sale.

quote:
: what if the buyer were present at the auction, and had an opportunity to examine the item, but was legally blind?

Being present, he would still be considered to have had the opportunity to have examined the merchandise. The fact that he was legally blind would not matter once he starts bidding.
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But the question begs to be asked...

How does a legally blind person collect coins like you and I do?

I find that the discussion of the high bidder being legally blind is a bit rhetorical, in that then the seller could say that how could they be liable when he cannot probably see the coin in question, and who is responsible for what he can and cannot see.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That was the worst part. Yes he had paid for it. I asked at the time if he had a receipt. He said so what. What would he do with it?
No we have to many places where you leave well enough alone.
Someday I'll tell about a restaurant around here that is always closed, has been for 25 years.
Forum Dad
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24171 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
How does a legally blind person collect coins like you and I do?


My sister is blind and buys me gifts all the time.

So the person is illiterate instead of blind. Now what?

Let's forget we're talking about coins for a minute. My mother, who knows nothing about cars, needs to buy one. I tell her to make sure she gets a 4 cylinder. She wouldn't know a 4 cyl from an 8 looking right at the engine for hours.

She goes to a used car lot, picks out a car, and asks the salesperson if it's a 4 cylinder. Salesperson says yes. She buys it and brings it to me, I look at it and it's a 6 cyl.

The car is going back, and I don't think there's a court that would side with the salesperson (assuming it's known by the court the salesperson did say it was a 4 cyl.) regardless of intent. My mother was misinformed by the salesperson whether it was intentional or not.
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to admit, I don't know anyone that is blind. Only deaf, and I know three of them, they are my kids, and they are instantly deaf as soon as either my wife or myself speak. But if you say some magic word like money, candy, library etc. it often jolts them out of their deafness.
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All the talk about the purported 1928 Peace dollar reminds me of a story my Grandmother shared with me one time. When I was a baby she worked in a drug store as a cashier. One night she had a young lady come in saying she needed to buy baby formula, so my Grandmother assisted her in finding it, and then came to the cash register to ring up the sale. The lady gave her several Peace dollars, and my Grandmother told her she shouldn't spend them, but save them as they were valuable. The lady explained that they were all the money she had, and that she had to spend them. So my Grandmother accepted them in payment and gave her her change. Later that evening she bought them out of the drawer and brought them home. Apparently one of them was a 1928, and it was probably uncirculated as there was quite a bit of interest when she showed it to others. She had saved them for sometime and intended to give them to me when I was older, but someone at some point stole them when our home was broken into. So alas, I still do not own a 1928 Peace, only the 34-S and 35-S as my rarities.
Pillar of the Community
halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2007  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder101--Here are the answers to your questions, but please remember I have only worked for auction houses in one state and attended auctions in 3 others, so the answers might not apply in other states:

1. A typographical error is not a misrepresentation.

2. There is not, in the law, such a thing as an "as is" sale. There are only sales agreements, classified broadly as contracts. Misrepresentation/fraud laws apply regardless of the auction house's disclaimers. It is to the auction house's advantage to make you think that they can dictate the terms of sale, and that your recourse is limited. State laws and rules for auctioneers supersede anything the auctioneer may declare regarding terms of sale.

3. My point regarding the legally blind bidder stands. The auction house is obligated to describe the object for sale accurately. To do otherwise is to misrepresent and if profit that otherwise would not have been made had the item been described accurately is made, that constitutes fraud.

Whether or not it's worth hiring a lawyer to fight an auction house that can't or won't accurately identify a coin is another matter entirely.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  09:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, let me throw you a curve ball, now. I attend 6 different local auctions regularly. Four of these are fairly well run and two are right out of the dark ages, still they all sell coins. All but one attempts to generate some sort of list or catalog before the auction and they are a reasonable reference and gives you ideas about whether you even want to attend. The bigger question is why do we go? Yes it is to try and buy some very nice coins, at times, but as much as anything we are looking for something that has not been either correctly or completely identified. Be it one of the better Morgan VAMs not noted or something that has simply been vaguely identified. I recently purchased a lot of 5 Merc dimes for $3. I had looked in the bag and one of the coins was a bust dime. These coins were miss identified, does to consignor have any recourse with the auction house since the ID error was in the buyers favor. These happen all of the time and are what make auctions such an attraction. The chance to hit a home run. The list is never 100% accurate, just a vague representation of the item. An example would be when they sell a vehicle. They start it, you get to hear it run, and they may even move it around the parking lot. Aside from the list being "1943 Nash Rambler - starts - runs" you know very little. When you win the bid and drive it off, you find the tranny locked in first and it won't shift, does the auction house have responsibility since they did not describe these problems. I suspect not. And this takes me back to where I started. Be responsible for yourself. Don't go to a coin auction and not study the items. Letting someone else be responsible for you purchasing decision is not smart. Heck, there was not even a grade on the 1928 listed. If he had not looked at it, so that he did not know the true date, it could have had three bullet holes in it for all he knew.
Jim
Jim
Pillar of the Community
halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  10:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All your points are correct. Superior knowledge can help you avoid problems, and make out like a bandit since the auction house is responsible for knowing what they are selling on behalf of a consignor. The worst thing an auction house can do is take a consignor's word for anything. Avoid problems, learn which are the good auction houses and which are the shady ones.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Posted - Yesterday : 4:26:30 PM

I have to admit, I don't know anyone that is blind. Only deaf, and I know three of them, they are my kids, and they are instantly deaf as soon as either my wife or myself speak. But if you say some magic word like money, candy, library etc. it often jolts them out of their deafness.

Now I have to admit that was funny. However, my experience is "HUH" all the time when I say anthing. You can always tell a parent. They repeat things 3 times out of habit.

Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are right, Carl.
Jim
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
However, my experience is "HUH" all the time when I say anthing.

And I hear Wha? I swear sometimes I just want to issue printed memorandums to them reminding them of whatever they will need to know.
Pillar of the Community
halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am a three time repeater:

Put that down please.
Put that down please.
Put that down please.

Honey is 911 on speed dial?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember, they are tax write-offs.
Jim
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wowza - if the amount of the tax write off was all they cost. Unfortunately you have to brace their teeth, clothe them, feed them give them allowances etc. Sometimes when they are narsty it might be just tempting to let Mr. Tax man take them in payment.
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