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 Replies: 41 / Views: 7,551 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United Kingdom
701 Posts |
  I hope this works, I could only get 2 pics to upload though. I will add more don't worry. |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
  sorry about the poor quality pictures. I will do some of the edge next. |
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Valued Member
Austria
194 Posts |
Looking at your pics now (thank you) I would also say:
it might be real. but this says nothing. I do not like the eyes of isabella and some small details. Therefore it wouls be neccessary to compare the die variations.
But it is better to have such coin in your hand to say more.
I also totally agree to PatAR´s explanations concerning the x-ray diffraction.
Also his reminds about the price are correct. The rate between gold and platinum was ca. 1: 2,5. after 1880, the price of platinum exploded and overtook the goldprice.
Concerning the weight: there was a tolerance of around 5 percent allowed as I know from some minting acts. that it was also technically not possible to strike all coins with the same exact weight. a further point is, that the royal mints that time were like the french mints, semi-privat and not directly under gouvernement control. so there was a lot of space for criminal actings. coin sites mainly use the average weight, printed in friedberg or cuhaj (standard catalogues for gold coins)
(I try to do my best, explaining all of this in english, please excuse some mistakes)
Edited by platinrubel
10/27/2014 6:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
I didn't know that the xray was fallible, I thought it was a definitive answer !
I understand simple pictures are not much use, but I wasn't aware of the die variations out there Platin.
Is there anything that I should be looking for on this coin ?
Many thx for your post Platin & patAR.
Your English is fine Platin, don't apologise.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Well its amazing what you find when you open your eyes a little, I think I have found something on the coin that might not belong there.
At 5 o'clock on isabella's side there is a dot after the word " const "
I have just done a quick scan of various known examples and it doesn't appear on any of them.
Did you notice this or have you seen it before Platinrubel ?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Its the eye ... it looks modern.
Platinrubel look at the rim from K-6 to K-9. Strange how off-set these dentils are from the rim? Die Transfer type process?
See the new book on Counterfeit 8 Reales by Gurney - this type of rim defect is a signature for a die transfer process. Chinese fake ... maybe.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Ouch John. Possible Chinese fake, that stings.
Hopefully PCGS will send me a reply 2moro or day after with their reason, things are starting to look gloomy.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Well still no reply from PCGS yet, if they havnt replied by tonight I will contact them again.
Having slept on it I have come to the conclusion that I more than likely don't have what I thought I had,
if this is a fake Chinese copy I will leave all the info and pictures for the community and take my medicine.
I don't enjoy being " that " person but it is what it is, I at least have the option of returning the coin to the dealer I bought it from. All of this said I still need PCGS to let me know there opinion.
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Valued Member
United States
262 Posts |
The eye and hair are wrong along with other details such as the second dot you mentioned. After you've looked at a few hundred genuine examples a coin like this one just pops out as false. Don't take it too hard, just embrace it as a learning experience (and get a refund if possible).
I believe it is a modern forgery or reproduction based on the style of the design. Some copy or reproduction companies made several coins of Isabel II over the years as promotional tokens for marketing efforts of companies or festivals etc. Most of these have initials of the company on the edge somewhere. Others, as colonialjohn mentioned, are forgeries (many from China) intended to fool collectors. This one could be either. Any edge photos available?
Again, I would encourage you not to think of yourself as "that person", but rather a collector who has encountered "that experience". Anyone who has been at this awhile has had learning experiences at some point. Keep at it and keep asking questions.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
As the site motto say's " education is the key to success " Thanks for the reassuring words PatAR, too many words to list explaining how I feel right now. PCGS are not helping much either by not giving an explanation, surely their reasons are worth sharing with the coin community if only for the purpose of education. I have paid for a service after all !     |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Evening folks,
I have just received a reply from PCGS regarding the coin.
They say it is a modern copy and confirm it is gold, that unfortunately was all the person was permitted to say right now. Further investigation is going on and they will e-mail with the complete findings.
As soon as they contact me I will post the results.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Another thing about XRF. Having analyzed over 5,000 coins with XRF from all U.S. and World types and having a world contemporary XRF reference coin collection of about 200 World pieces from 1500-1800 I can say when you shoot with a XRF gun or lab bench higher end model look at ALL the elements. As an example here with gold coming from a 19thC source if the mint is from South American particularly from a South American Mint gold coins will have trace platinum and or palladium. Unquestionably for Spanish Mint coins. This is why they used platinum as the debased worthless alloy in the 19thC. It was worhless in the 19thC.
In your case gold should have lead, copper and silver >1% due to the cupellation process not being able to extract lead and silver efficiently in this time period and maybe platinum and palladium in trace (<1.0 %).
The real observation is what the other 10% says in the assay. We try to stress this in the GNL book with regal 8R and the 0.2% gold signature. If you see an order of magnitude less of gold (i.e., <0.02% Au) in ANY regal 16th to 19thC Reale please proceed from pessimism to optimism. This hurts because you saw the 90% Au and everything was KOOL. Its the OTHER 10%. Ok ... you get my point. If you XRF shoot it again post the assay here just as FYI ...
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
10/28/2014 7:14 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Good evening John, thank you for the excellent information.
Do you think PCGS would provide this data if I asked them for it ? The lady that e-mailed me did confirm it was gold with allowances, I will message her in the morning with a request.
Many thanks again John for sharing your knowledge, I have learnt more in the last couple of days than the last couple of years.
I will post the results from PCGS as soon as they come in.
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Valued Member
United States
262 Posts |
Edges don't lead me to any certain conclusion about origin.
Thank you so much for sharing this coin with us. Would you mind if I incorporate these photos into my book on Isabel II?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Good evening PatAR,
You are welcome to use the photo's and data ( when PCGS get back to me )
I will do my best to take some better pics for you when I get the chance.
Nice to be able to contribute with my 1st post,
Sadly not in the way I expected.
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Replies: 41 / Views: 7,551 |
First Page
Posted 10/27/2014 5:32 pm
