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Looks Like I Found Another Fake...1909 S VDB...

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2015  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm just hoping it might be a lesson to others to not jump to conclusions, and investigate instead.


A lesson I need to take myself. This is a case where you're very likely right, and me very likely wrong, but I remain unconvinced.

You motivated me to go look at a bunch of other examples in the VF range. All were in slabs (Heritage archives). Some seemed to have this depression around the MM; many (most) did not and none of those which did showed that depression in similar size, or as clearly, as the coin being discussed here.

Sometimes you can't drill down so deeply; you have to look at the whole surface of the coin in context. The things I object to are clearest in the seller's full-face images, which are pretty darn good and a rough size match for Heritage imaging so the comparison is valid. Looked at that way, this coin here is in a different league than the ones I looked at.

I cast no aspersions whatsoever on the seller. He's a prominent dealer in the area where I went to High School; I'm actually predisposed to favor him.

So, let's look at it from a slightly different perspective: What would cause that depression in normal Mint operations?

For the record, I looked at an equal number of 1909-S with no VDB. That issue is still a $100 coin in slabbed VF, so there are plenty of them at Heritage.

None of those which I looked at had this depression. At least, none looked at in the full image, in which it figures so prominently in the OP coin.

I'm forced to think that maybe there are more added MM's than we think, and maybe there are quite a few of them in slabs. You and I would know exactly where the MM should be, and what it would look like, if we were going to add one. Don't give the counterfeiters credit for less knowledge.
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kbbpll's Avatar
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4233 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2015  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did look through a few pages of Heritage in reverse order by price but the coins and photos were so bad I quickly gave up. I did find a couple that were well worn, had the appearance of a depression, and still had some striations.

NGC Fine Details Obv Graffiti
Looks-Like-I-Found-Another-Fake...1909-S-VDB...
ANACS G6 Weak VDB
Looks-Like-I-Found-Another-Fake...1909-S-VDB...

Having spent years analyzing aerial imagery for a major online map provider, I'm reluctant to judge vertical displacement based on two-dimensional images, which are often deceiving (think photos of lunar craters that look like raised plateaus). And considering the popularity of this coin, I seem to find very little information on die varieties other than the 4 mint mark placements. Just looking through the high-grade Heritage examples, it seemed like #4 (low S) has two varieties, one having a faint line going from about a fourth of the way up the first 9 southeast to the upper tip of the lower serif on the S, which you can see faint evidence of on the OP coin, but maybe they all have it and it just doesn't show in some photos.

Well, it's been interesting but I'll probably never have one in hand anyway. Certainly you're probably right that there's more good fakes than we know about and some even in slabs. I was just struck by how many high grade examples I found within a short time that look very much like the OP coin.

Edit: I just found this.
http://www.procoins.com/images/1909svdb.pdf

Quote:
One of the most unique characteristic of the #4 mintmark position is that in the late die states there is a
die chip in the upper loop of the B in Liberty

Hmm - maybe?
Looks-Like-I-Found-Another-Fake...1909-S-VDB...
Edited by kbbpll
04/14/2015 12:39 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2015  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Each of those 4 mint mark placements should indicate a single unique obverse die. 4 is all it took to strike them all, and if their production went smoothly they could have done 484,000 with 2 dies.

That die chip just sent me on a mission that - to my standards - proved me wrong. Let me get some images and words together and I'll show you what I found.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2015  2:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an LDS MM Position #4 in a very old PCGS MS64RB slab. The die chip in the B is clear, as is the "bowl" around the MM. Theory: This happened because the sudden ferocity of the MM being struck into the die caused a brittleness of the surrounding metal which gradually wore down in use. The slower squeeze of a hub -> die impression didn't have the same effect on the surrounding metal. This sort of Die Deterioration is something we see often. EDS coins won't show either the chip or the bowl.

Looks-Like-I-Found-Another-Fake...1909-S-VDB...
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2015  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd just stay away from all 1909 S VDB's altogether. Frees up $1000 and saves me the worry of buying a counterfeit.
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