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Salzberg Advises: Research PCGS Populations And Prices

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Tbone's Avatar
United States
1839 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2017  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
moxking, Heritage uses a script to pull the population from NGC/PCGS in real time. There is no snapshot in time. I compared a 1939-s quarter listing that is a current auction, to a listing that sold in 2007. The population numbers were identical.


This is correct.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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6370 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2017  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
First, not all the coins are strictly conditional rarities only. I think most folks would agree that a 1912-S Liberty nickel is a key date, even if it is charted at the top. A 1945-S Walking Liberty half is certainly at the top end of the grade scale at 67, but I'm not sure I'd call that "only" a conditional" rarity.


What I meant by "conditional rarity" was a coin that is relatively common overall, but is only very rare in the upper grades. A 1796 half dollar is rare in all grades, exceptionally so in MS. A 1912 S nickel is fairly common and a 1945 S half is very common, except in the highest grades, where they are rare.


Quote:
Yes, he is using the high end of the scale as comparison on all the coins, but that would be the LEAST likely grades for such huge increases in such a short time.


Very good point. I didn't think of it that way. But Salzberg still does not address the issues of resubmissions, crossovers, and registry sets that may have legitimate reasoning why the numbers increased so drastically. But these don't explain the PF/MS-70's. You can't resubmit those reoeatedly and hope to get a 71.


Quote:
Second, you said that his benchmark was 5 years. Actually, if you READ the charts (forgetting months, just years)there was: 1-8 Year, 2-5 Year, 3-3 Year, and 3-2 Year comparisons.


I got my number from when Salzberg says "In the past five years." I saw that the first two charts spanned five years and erroneously assumed that the rest spanned five years. it seems weird that he wouldn't be consistent with his data ranges. Also, if you look at several of the graphs, the value was already declining, drastically in some cases, well before the PCGS population boom began. PCGS is therefore not the only reason for the plummeting prices.


Quote:
but I think your zeal against TPG's in general biased your opinion.


You are most likely right. But the data shows that the presence of the TPGs is hurting the hobby. Or it is showing that a massive market correction is taking place.


Quote:
The majority of coins I purchase are in a price range where I'm simply an idiot if I don't purchase them in NGC or PCGS holders.

Especially considering that the prices for raw and TPG'd coins in those price ranges usually have little if any difference. So I'm usually not paying any more for the NGC or PCGS than I would for the same quality coin without their opinion.


I never said that buying certified coins was stupid. I that buying only the number is stupid. Your logic is quite intelligent as your coins will be much more resalable in the future without having to invest extra for the opinion.


Quote:
In the last three years, particularly, I've been FORCED to buy more NGC coins than I have in the past.

I do keep track. In 2012 my purchases were 67% PCGS, 33% NGC, in 2013 my purchases were 58% PCGS, 42% NGC, in 2014 my purchases were 51% PCGS and 49% NGC, in 2015 my purchases were 47% PCGS and 53% NGC, and last year my purchases were 31% PCGS and 69% NGC.

So for myself, I've really turned more toward NGC for the simple reason that I DO buy the coin and not the holder. Most of the coins on my want list I have to look at dozens or even hundred of times for the same date and mint mark before I find one that meets my needs in eye appeal, grade, and price.

ALL OF the coins I've sold in the last two years have been PCGS. I haven't sold a single NGC, because I didn't have any I wanted to sell. In looking at some of the PCGS I bought recently, I see that I might have jumped too quickly on "filling the hole".


Very interesting observation. I inherently like NGC better because they seem less intent on commercializing the coin industry than PCGS.


Quote:
I have only recently decided to start a set with certified coins


What is this world coming to?!?!
Edited by TypeCoin971793
01/18/2017 8:53 pm
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 Posted 01/18/2017  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LibertyEagle20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This just tells me that grading is very subjective. If I can buy a 66 for $50 or a 67 for 300... I'll go with the 66 every time. I would much rather spend that $250 difference on something else.
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Earle42's Avatar
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10038 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2017  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A quote from the author:
"I have been a collector for virtually my entire life and I care deeply about our hobby. I think it would be irresponsible for me to remain silent about the damage that I think is being done."

If this is truly the case, then let's address the damage to the hobby done by slabbing in general. Before slabbing, every coin by date and mint mark had its own value - which is why prices (although we know they have always been inflated) in the Red Book would list down to even the lower grades. Mintages, date, and MM drove the values. It used to be fun looking in the Red Book for each coin to see what it was you had found.

That fun is forever gone b/c slabbing altered the focus of the hobby onto key coins so now everything in circulated condition is relegated to junk silver if its not a key. And then there came the designations of FSB, FBL, etc. that made the coins people recognized as "top examples" become second best and not so special anymore. Granted, I understand these coins are better strike, but I cannot help but feel people's perceived value of BU coins are lowered.

I think a more comprehensive statement from the author should be that he cares about the money made off of collectors from the slabbing mills. After all - the drop in value from PCGS he is claiming occurred also affects NGC slabbed coin values.

From the start, and like collectors outside the US used to say, I never saw a need to pay someone to grade my coin for me as most anyone reading the guidelines is/was capable. These companies knew the psychological and emotional "need" of humans to have an "expert's" stamp of approval, played on that, and made a business.

Admittedly I see two actual reasons for slabbing though.
1. It allows people who are not coin collectors to know the coin in hand is not just something to be dumped at the bank.
2. It will bring more profit to a person selling it b/c of the perceived value the plastic/label brings.

For reason 1, I have had around 6 total coins slabbed in case something happens to me and my family is wondering what to do with the coins.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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Dith Pran's Avatar
United States
283 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2017  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dith Pran to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I could start on classic silver commemoratives, but I've yammered way too long...


I'm actually very interested in what you might have to say on the subject...
Rest in Peace
United States
233 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am ignorant of how the grading services arrive at their population counts.

Q/ Am I to understand that, when each coin is graded, someone goes through the photographic records of the tens of coins that have been graded at that level to be certain that they have never seen this particular coin before? At other grades, too?

Q/ Or, are they just counting the certificates they have issued?

If the latter, it seems to me unsurprising that population counts have increased, and at an increasing rate.

Why? Lots of people have lots of coins and, as the craze has caught on, are grading & slabbing more & more of their coins.

Might it not be just that simple?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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jbuck's Avatar
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188283 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What is this world coming to?!?!
TypeCoin, you have been keeping up with my posts in the Ike thread, right?
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Q/ Am I to understand that, when each coin is graded, someone goes through the photographic records of the tens of coins that have been graded at that level to be certain that they have never seen this particular coin before? At other grades, too?

Q/ Or, are they just counting the certificates they have issued?

If the latter, it seems to me unsurprising that population counts have increased, and at an increasing rate.

Why? Lots of people have lots of coins and, as the craze has caught on, are grading & slabbing more & more of their coins.

The latter, they just count the "certificates" they have issued. About the only time populations are revised downward is if someone sends in labels from coins that have been cracked out (almost never happens) or if someone sends in a coin they have already grading, in the slab, for a regrade and the grade changes (occasionally happens.)

What really pushes them up though is when people keep cracking out and resubmitting the same coin over and over again trying to get that slight upgrade.
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punman's Avatar
Canada
849 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add punman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would there be any way of telling which PCGS slabs are say, less than six years old?
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Tbone's Avatar
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1839 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's what Don Willis had to say


Quote:
PCGS is the world's leading grading service for many reasons, most importantly because we operate with a level of transparency and objectivity that is unmatched in the industry. PCGS has always been and will continue to be the most effective Consumer Protection advocate in the coin market.

PCGS is also a tough competitor. We set the standard for third party grading 30 years ago. Every other grading service has attempted to copy that standard and has been playing a game of catch up for all these years. Mark Salzberg, Chairman of NGC, recently published an open letter wherein he attempted to smear PCGS and strike fear in the hearts of collectors.

In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.

Another phenomena contributing to increased PCGS populations is our crossover service. Many collectors and dealers who own coins graded by other grading services attempt to cross their coins into PCGS holders. As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit. Simply look at many of the coins sold in the recent Newman and Partrick auctions by Heritage and you can see for yourself how many have already been crossed over.

PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience. The market's confidence in PCGS graded coins is greater than ever. As we recently reported all of the top 20 coins sold in auction during 2016 were graded by PCGS. As we have also reported, over 80% of all CAC coins sold in recent auctions were PCGS coins. CAC is a respected independent organization with no ties to PCGS yet based on public information 4 out of 5 coins they approve have been graded by PCGS.

We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.

Sincerely,

Don Willis
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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6370 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  6:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.


And this is exactly the reason why one should avoid conditional rarities. More are found, and the price goes down.

And, like I said, NGC was not telling the whole story.
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Andrew99's Avatar
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1533 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The use of condition rarity coins only as his examples of prices collapsing and populations exploding is foolish and misleading. Nobody buying rare coins lost 90% of their money in the past 5 years. The real losers were people that got caught up in the Registry Set chase in common coin issues. If the coin wouldn't stand on its own without the slab at the price you're being asked, then it is not worth it in the slab.
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Tbone's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2017  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting commentary posted today about the Salzberg vs. Willis dust-up

http://www.coinweek.com/opinion/opi...t-realities/
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srs77's Avatar
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3134 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This has been a very interesting read so first thank you to all who have participated. Here are my thoughts, please understand that this is how I 'collect'. If you're in this for profit then I believe it's a different argument but anyway here are my thoughts.

First, do I have PCGS and NGC graded coins in my 'collection'. Yes... They were purchased by looking at the coin and not the holder as everyone I think agrees should be done.

Second, have I ever submitted a coin to any grading company? No, nor will I ever. I simply don't need their 'opinion' on the grade of my coin because I think I am able to do this myself and where I'm not so sure I can post pics of the coin here to get great opinions on the grades of my coins from all of you and I sincerely appreciate that! So for me it's a waste of time and money to send my coins off to the grading companies for something I can get done myself.

Remember, I'm a collector not someone looking to turn a profit. There is nothing wrong with that but it is simply not my approach.

My father and grandfather got me into 'collecting' 48 years ago. I got into it as a kid who was wide eyed and enjoyed the 'hunt'. I still do. I always will. What this means is I don't have all 'perfect' coins but rather I have a collection of coins that range anywhere from P02 to MS-66 (my highest graded coin). I look at my coins EVERY DAY and truly enjoy them no matter the grade. I always wonder where they've been, who might have held them what have they seen? THAT to me is the enjoyment of the hobby. BTW my wife swears my loupe is permanently attached to my hand!

Everyone has the right to tackle their collection as they see fit and I'd never tell someone they should or shouldn't have a coin graded. That is for them to decide and I don't want to impart any bias on their decision.

As far as PCGS, NGC, ANACS and any others who are grading coins, you won't see my business for the reasons stated above but I sincerely hope you all remember what the hobby is all about. I hope that you truly have the best interest of the hobby at heart as you grade. For this hobby to flourish in the future our children remain that future. They more we bring them into the 'fun' of the hobby the more the hobby will exist for a long time to come.

I will continue to follow this most interesting thread and I hope I haven't offended anyone by this post as that was not it's intent. Rather, just a viewpoint from someone who has collected for a long time, long before PCGS and NGC existed...

Have fun everyone...
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