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 Replies: 13 / Views: 2,707 |
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Bedrock of the Community
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Coin sites:People wonder why different sites have different numbers. Well each site attributes the coins as they see fit. The numbers on the coppercoins site for the Lincoln cents used the same die numbers for the orange RPM book as a guide until they filled out the old listings.  When the listings for the RPMs from that book we complete, then they added their new finds as they were submitted. Then CONECA started listing new ones and they had book two of the RPMs. But today they use their numbers on there website. Coppercoins were the first with the images on the internet and later Wexler started listing them there and Variety Vista. So the way they are listed, is like this: 1. Coppercoins listings followed the CONECA listing in their book with images of markers. Everyone like that. Why? Because descriptions sometimes just does cut it. If the mention of a die crack through a letter, there could be several different locations of a die crack on the devices on that device. So seeing helped fill in the blanks. Also coppercoins noted that the CONECA listing were few. So they added a good number of listings that CONECA didn't have. 2. Wexler's listings for RPMs were even a larger number than coppercoins had. So they differed in listing numbers. Quantity of numbers. If you look at the older publications you will find John Wexler on their publications. So there are three ranges of Lincoln Cent ranges. Small number, medium number, large number of attributed dies. For example on the Orange RPM book for 1959, CONECA had then 20. coppercoins has 63 listings. The Wexler publication from 2010 show 111 listings for the same year, 1959-D. So you see why they are different. 1966 DDO Kennedy half dollars.Well back to the subject of this thread. On the 1966 half dollars, there was an issue with a working master hub that was not discovered until lately. 50 years went by and doubled dies were found, submitted, attributed, slabbed, and now realized there was an issue with three different working hubs that were doubled. On Wexler's site he mentions this. On the CONECA site, they have pulled some dies images. and some are still left. So what I wonder is this: How many of the dies were created with one, two or three working hubs used on the same die. Back then the dies were hubbed many times to create the dies. So who knows how many dies were created with this issue? Now what. You have coins from dies that were in the past doubled dies. You have slabbed coins in the past that were doubled dies. You have coins your trying to attribute what show on some sites and not on others. Seems like a big mess. So I say, Keep what you have and don't buy anything until this is sorted out. What if you bought a complete set and they were deemed not doubled dies? So keep your wits until the dust settles. If the prices start dropping, people may know something they are not telling. This happens sometimes and people just off the boat to unload what they have before the price goes down. Or maybe something else will fix the issue? Who know? I don't. Just save them until you know for sure.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
74880 Posts |
Awesome thread Coop! I have learned something new today.
Errers and Varietys.
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Bedrock of the Community
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36845 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
84 Posts |
Interesting post about the 1966 DDO Kennedy half dollars. A few questions for the author. One, on the CONECA site, what images have been pulled? I visit the Variety Vista site several times a week to see what new images if any have been added but have never noticed any images being pulled or taken down. To imply that images have been pulled that were never there is misleading at best. Two, the issue with a working master hub that was not discovered until lately? Really? If you looked at James Wiles' book The Kennedy half dollar Book, An Attribution and Pricing Guide that was published in 1997 (twenty years ago), you will notice that on the 1966 issues he states, "Second, most of these doubled dies have been given a class III designation even through two or more designs have not been identified. It is my conclusion that the images were shifted slightly in relation to each other on the various hubs, causing these unique doubling types." Even in the CONECA master listings on the web, for 1966 Kennedy half dollars it has always stated in part that, "Second, the majority of these doubled dies have been given a class III designation (design hub doubling) even though two or more designs have not been identified. No other class of doubling appears to describe the doubling found on these coins. It is my conclusion that the designs were slightly shifted in relation to each other on the various hubs. It is possible that there could be a couple of doubled working hubs involved, though the doubling is unique enough for me to place them in the individual doubled die category at this time." To me, the question is the doubling "unique" enough to determine that they came from an individual die and if so then they are a true doubled die. Even on Wexler's site, I notice in his ramblings he states that, "Die Markers: Obverse: The markers will vary on the different working dies. Reverse: The markers will vary on the different working dies." In conclusion, no images have been pulled by CONECA or James Willes regarding the 1966 Kennedy half dollar DDOs and the idea that working hubs were involved in the production of the 1966 half dollars is not new. Plus, even if working hubs are involved, the doubling is unique enough to determine individual dies. |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
62064 Posts |
Edited by coop
11/02/2018 8:21 pm
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Valued Member
United States
84 Posts |
When you look at the ebooks on variety vista, http://www.varietyvista.com/index.htm, you will notice that the Kennedy halves and Eisenhower dollars are only complete with the RPMs, the rest of these series are a work in progress. It would be nice if James Wiles would finish / complete these two ebooks but considering he is donating his time to doing them I guess we will have to wait and let him do it on his time table. One of the points of my post was to clarify that the Kennedy ebook on Variety Vista has not been completed but that doesn't mean that varieties have been pulled, just that images haven't been posted yet. So when you look at the Variety Vista site, you only see the images that James Wiles has put up so far, again lack of images only means that he hasn't gotten around to posting them yet. I do know that James Wiles has been plugging away on the Kennedy ebook, I sent him a 1966 DDO-033 a few months ago for verification and I notice if you click on the link for the DDO-033 (even thou there is no thumbnail photo) you will see pictures of my coin (with all the bag marks). http://www.varietyvista.com/12%20Ke...s%201966.htm |
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Valued Member
United States
311 Posts |
My complaint is that I keep seeing people with Kennedy half dollar attribution questions on this forum being told there is a mess with the Kennedy's attribution sites and you should hold them for now and wait till issues are settled. I have been collecting Kennedy half dollar varieties for years now, using the CONECA Kennedy half dollar Master Listings for a checklist, which shows about 400 variety listings, and have been able to complete most of them. I have found that attributions, using the descriptions in the listings, and some help from James Wiles and others, can be made. I do think when James Wiles completes his Kennedy half dollar E-Book on Variety Vista, attributions will be easier. I do not think that the CONECA Master Listings for the Kennedy half dollar are a mess. I do think the changes that are going on with the Kennedy half dollars on the Wexler site is becoming a mess. It seems to me that the site does not recognize that if a doubled die, hub doubled, or a working die, is unique, and different from any other die, it should be listed, an example is what was taken away in the 1966 Kennedy series. I am not going to hold my collection for now and wait till issues are settled. I would be interested in what other forum users think about all this. Larry Nienaber |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Well take for example the 1962 proof/business strike cents. There are so many different dies with the doubled dates. It will take a long time to figure these out. I have so many I've number them in my own collection and tried to see if if I have duplicates. I'm patient though. If they are not completed by the time I'm gone, I guess someone else will have to wait for them to be attributed.
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Valued Member
United States
84 Posts |
Atrox001 - I guess I'm at a loss, I don't understand your question. The only website of any value on Kennedy half dollar attributions is the CONECA master listings and I'm puzzled on how this is a mess or why anyone would say so. The website Variety Vista runs a close second place for value on attributing Kennedy half dollars but only if the variety you are looking for has been posted (it is still a work in progress). Wexler's website for Kennedy half dollars, I wouldn't say is messed up, it is more of a joke. John Wexler may be a nice guy and he may be well informed on varieties of other series. I number of years ago, I purchased a few Kennedy half dollars that Wexler attributed and they were so de minimus in nature that they were pathetic. Within the group of collectors that I mostly deal with, we think of that Life cereal commercial when referring to Wexler, I don't know if you remember back in the 1980s, "Give it to Mikey, he will eat anything". The spin we use is "Send it to Wexler, he will list anything." I also see no reason to put our collection on hold and will continue to use the CONECA master listings for what to search for. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
616 Posts |
Wow!  I hate that I missed this thread, but as luck would have it my due diligence in research after discovering a 1966 MS Kennedy half dollar DDO-05/FS-101 has brought me to the party! Concerning the various sources for variety attribution on the 1966 series of half dollar DDO's, I am at a loss for words, at least the ones needed to type enough complete sentences that could compose a short paragraph on the matter. So I'll list a few one word descriptors that I will elaborate on: Ambiguous- meaning in relation to the1966 50¢ DDO's, some don't even specify MS or SMS on their attributions. That's kinda important...one would think. Contradicting- meaning a lot of the cross-reference numbers listed for the other attributors (ie: WDDO-xx, FS-xxx, DDO-xx) on any particular DDO are either wrong or don't match up when compared. Single minded- meaning in general, when something interesting comes along that presents itself as a genuine enigma and doesn't fit into any pre-defined class or category of a particular variety it's just swept under the rug and ignored for the most part or at best put into the unknown category and then forgotten about. Those are just a few I can think of, but having said that let me say that I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of the variety experts that have taken the time to attribute the thousands of varieties that have been discovered and for continuing to attribute the newly found ones and for also making their work public for all the numismatic community to use a reference. Just the research I perform for my personal cherry picks can become quite daunting at times, so I couldn't even imagine accepting numerous submissions from across the country on a daily basis.  I just wish they could all get together and mutually agree on a single universal system for variety attribution, which you would think, would make it easer on them as well as the numismatic community as a whole. Anyways, that's my Two Cents on the matter....which means I have 48 cents left.  Just don't get me started on the 1972 hub doubled master die vs. a very poorly re-ingraved master die debacle.......  |
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Pillar of the Community
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Bedrock of the Community
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74880 Posts |
Great find JDRMCB!
Errers and Varietys.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
616 Posts |
Thanks! I'm super stoked because while I have found numerous 1966 doubled profile DDO's in SMS, this is the very first one I have found in MS.  In my limited research, the MS ones appear to be many times more scarce than their SMS counterparts. As PCGS only recognizes a sole 1966 DDO in MS with a total population of a mere 22 coins across all grades. While on the other hand, PCGS recognizes a handful of different 1966 SMS DDO's, each with populations averaging a few hundred coins across all grades. Which would put the total 1966 SMS DOO population in the thousands. So I'm really hoping those few bag marks you may notice on a nice MS coin with otherwise exceptionally clear fields won't cost it too many points when I send it in for grading. |
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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,707 |
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Posted 11/01/2018 3:47 pm
